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The definition of something living includes the ability to grow, which is exactly what is going on inside a woman, who is pregnant. An abortion ceases the growing process, therefore ending the future life of a human being. This little being may not start with a heartbeat or brain activity, but cells are still dividing and allowing it to.
It arguably it is life when you can save the child in premature birth at age 24 weeks. The 24 weeks old life can both be taken and saved by the same doctors – killing the idea, that it is not a child and does not have a brain. If we would have stock strictly to the free abortion period, you could argues so, but since we do not, that argument is failing under the current laws.
Children cannot be and do not ask about being born, this is purely an option adults have. Whether the woman get pregnant or not is a choice by actions or lack of same, by two individuals – rape excepted. Pro-life individuals say abortion is taking the right to live, from a human being, a right an embryo cannot defend.
In ancient Rome infanticide were permitted under Roman law, but that doesn’t make them humane. Leaving your child on someone’s doorstep, or committing murder are considered a major penalty today, so why not abortion!! Roman law also support the institution of slavery (non-racial based slavery that is, the Romans didn’t discriminated based on race, everybody was entitled to be enslaved by Roman standard), yet today we see slavery as an abomination. Just because it is legal, does not mean is morally right or can be defended morally.
In 1973 abortions were made legal throughout the US, yet many would be more than happy to see them made illegal once more. Do you feel abortion is a woman’s right like the slave owners use to think of their rights to keep the slaves!!!
Abortion is a problem, because you can’t have the right of one part without violation the right of the other (it’s child vs mother in this case). For the taxpayers, abortion is cheaper than having many unwanted babies born and our earth is closes to being overpopulated as it is, so why is abortion a problem?
The answers is, because it ethically and morally wrong and the problem should be handled as a human rights issue, it’s hard to defend human right when the same individuals arguing for it, are so easily killing others just because they don’t have a voice or dear I say vote. Then the human rights outcry, become rather hypocritical when we don’t based our society on a moral principal and stick to it, but pick and chooses based on personal preferences, we then lose the moral justification.
Abortion Facts:
- 40 million abortion are done annually, globally
- The number of unhealthy abortions is unknown, since the statistics doesn’t support the distinction on a global level
- Having abortions legalised is beneficial for most adults, the mother and farther, society in large etc. with only one victim the child – without a vote
- Only 9 Weeks after Fertilization, more than 90% of the body structures found in a full-grown human are present (medical classification changes from an embryo to a foetus at this point) - at this point the child might be able to feel pain, but it’s unknown if it is so
- 24 Weeks after Fertilization, is the latest abortion time, however also within the reach of modern medicine to save the child if prematurely born. Here we see a clear crossover where the same child can be saved or killed, depending on the circumstances
So emotions and the law sat aside, what is morally right here?
What Girls & Guys Said
54 45personal freedom, i dont consider the thing alive until it can breathe oxygen for its self
So a 9 month old, but yet unborn baby, can be killed at will in your view then.
its not a baby, its a fetus. a pre-baby. but personally im not going to make a decision for someone else. we shouldn't be able to choose what someone does with his or her own body. and a fetus is still considered a part of a womens body because until it is born the baby needs the womens body to grow. we dont get all worked up over tonsils being removed. and this might be a bit of sidetracking, but why is it everyone is all for protecting kids while they grow up but then at a certain age (mainly 18 but could change depending on situation) we just throw them out into the world and dont care anymore? for instance, we get more worked up over a car accident where a kid is killed then where just an adult is killed. the adult was a kid once too you know. but whatever, people do what they do. (and yes, the 9 month old can die based on my view, since he/she was going to die anyway, its best to save him/her the pain of dying later.)
"since he/she was going to die anyway" no the alternative is to get born and live. I do agree about having a lot of other issues in the world besides abortion, however just because we have one issues doesn't mean to should be interest in others as well. Otherwise to should choose between the arguing against racist or sexism, or saving the whales or stopping pollution. We can do more than one thing you know.
"since he/she was going to die anyways" what i meant was that we all will die at some point, its just a matter of when. And yes, i totally agree that we can solve more then one problem at a time, but lets actually solve problems and not make decisions like this for other people. racism? easy fix. instead of everyone being all "Im white and im proud" Or "Im black and im proud" Lets all agree to be just human and be proud. sexism? same thing, "Im human, your human, end of story" seriously, we all make things WAY more complicated then they need to be because we think that is what we are supposed to do.
"but lets actually solve problems and not make decisions like this for other people" So rape and murder is ok, because let's not make decisions for other people!!! We make decisions for other people all the time though legislation.
lets not make decisions for other people when those decisions are only about themselves. if someone is trying to hurt someone else, yes stop them, obviously. but if someone is choosing to do something that would only effect themselves. then leave them be
I think it should be allowed for a certain amount of time. Up until the point where the child is considered a foetus. I think it definitely should be allowed in cases of rape or where there is a genuine risk to the mother's life. I don't think that any woman should HAVE TO carry a baby for nine months and give birth if she doesn't want to. But I also believe that you shouldn't be able to abort a near fully developed baby. If you believe that abortion at any stage is murder then don't have one. Everyone has different morals and if someone has different ones from you then why would you force them comply with yours?
So week 8/9 then?
Yes I suppose. But I'm very split on the whole issue of when a child can be considered a person.
"Do you feel abortion is a woman’s right like the slave owners use to think of their rights to keep the slaves!!!"
seriously abortion and slavery are comparable?
i'm pro-choice. please respect that
I'll respect your pro-life position
It an analogy, a similarity between like features of the two things not saying it is same, to assume so is stupid. Abortion is abortion and slavery is abortion, they do have one common feature and that is what I am comparing. Both contains legality over life and death of another human being, simply because the law say so, and the law say so because of those in power is in favour of it, that's the similarity.
correction slavery is NOT abortion...
analogy: a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification so you comparison of slavery to abortion is on the level of life or death of a human being? where did slavery pertain to the death of slaves? If you want to compare slavery to abortion it should be on the grounds of human rights... or better yet if you want to compare abortion to something maybe compare it to assisted suicide or capital punishment whereby people choose to take a life based on personal beliefs.
Actually no, both contains legality issues over life and death of another human being against their will. You can have an abortion without legal consequences because the child is not classified as a human, the same goes with the slaves. You could kill your salve without any legal consequences because the slave was not classified as a human. The analogy stands as I said it.
fine you win. unfortunately (or fortunately) you aren't winning and won't win the ultimate battle against abortion a question I have is why do you care what someone does with their own body? would it be better to have an unwanted child born and thrown into the foster system (which is a proven failed system)? would it be better for those impoverished people to have children who become an instant burden on the welfare system with little to know chance of getting out? is it better to have a child born of incest or rape to be born into the world serving as a constant reminder of the mother's pain?
a question I have is why do you care what someone does with their own body? ->Because there are victims, just like with rape or murder, we don't actually ignore those crimes do we!!! would it be better to have an unwanted child born and thrown into the foster system (which is a proven failed system)? ->What would the child prefer do you think, death or life in foster care? would it be better for those impoverished people to have children who become an instant burden on the welfare system with little to know chance of getting out? ->So we kill to save the taxpayers some expenses? is it better to have a child born of incest or rape to be born into the world serving as a constant reminder of the mother's pain? -> in those circumstances I agree with abortion, since the child's death is the result of the crime of rape/incest - I would however have the rapist condemned for murder as well as rape.
fortunately you aren't winning and won't win the ultimate battle against abortion -> of course not, this is not about reality it is about morals. The world is about power and money, it's cheaper to kill so we (humans) kill to save money - we even have wars to make/save money.
abortion is worse than slavery. more people have died from abortion than from slavery.
dudeman do you have any proof of that?
Abortion is someone's choice for sure, no one should have to carry a child for 9 months if they didn't intend to have it.
No and that's what's birth-control is fore. to prevent this, you even have a morning after pill preventing fertilisation of the egg.
I recognize that abortion is murder of a fetus/ unborn child--- which ever term you use. But I'm still prochoice. You had me until you compared aborting a pregnancy to slavery. That's not even close.
Exactly abortion is more like the Holocaust. A silent holocaust.
No. The Holocaust we're independent human beings with minds and rights of their own. If abortion was the same, there would be no question of whether or not it SHOULD be illegal. It's not. There are two sides to this. The women's rights to her body and the right of the fetus to live.
Banning abortion isn't right. To me, it never will be. If we do ban abortion, we should also make having sex illegal unless they plan on having the child. If they don't plan on having children and do concieve BOTH parents should be punished accordingly. Making a women have the (unwanted in this case) child, so she can "learn her lesson" is bull.
The only part I agree on is this: "Making a women have the (unwanted in this case) child, so she can "learn her lesson" is bull".. both parents are of course equally responsible for the child. Nothing else you said is true or make sense.
As is your right to disagree ^_^
I'm pro-choice in the sense that a woman can have the choice to have an abortion, as well as the choice not to. Pro-life only limits the woman to one, which I think is unfair.
I've said this before, but a foetus that is eligible for abortion is not a living, sentient being. It has no thoughts or feelings, and relies on it's mother for food and oxygen.
"Pro-life only limits the woman to one, which I think is unfair" .. then she can remove any option for the child, I think that is far more unfair. "but a foetus that is eligible for abortion is not a living, sentient being. It has no thoughts or feelings" .. until what week, does this apply? "relies on it's mother for food and oxygen." so?
Really, it's for you to decide whether it's right or wrong. What do you believe in and is the trade-off worth it in you're mind?
It's a chicken or the egg kind of question that we all must answer for ourselves.
Where does life start a heartbeat? The formation of the first limb, or bone? One could argue that even a partially produced life must be saved for stopping it from finishing would be murder but when does it start then? Does a man kill thousands of children when he masturbates or does a women kill thousands when her body kills off weaker seed?
Ok, so then the logical thing to say would be the brain but even that brings up problems. Do you believe that humans have souls? I personally believe that a human body is almost like a computer and our soul's operate it. That's why a good person could have a brain problem that makes them act like an asshole, or even evil. But now I'm just getting off track
My point is, it's more philosophical than you might think. A lot of the things that we wish science could answer, it simply can't right now. Definitely not now and probably not ever.
"it's for you to decide whether it's right or wrong." actually yes, as I human in a democratic sociaty I have an equal say in this. "What do you believe in and is the trade-off worth it in you're mind?" I believe at the very least abortion beyond week 8 should be illegal, I believe in personal responsibility. I believe in a principal, if a principal is uses as argument for abortion, then the same principal must apply to everything else in our legal system - and it's doesn't. "Where does life start a heartbeat?" life state when the egg is fertilised and starts dividing. The question you want to ask is when it's is human life you can't killed, and that is basically unknown so far, however current laws clearly overstep the boundary as it is. "Do you believe that humans have souls" .. actually I don't, the Bible say humans are souls, we don't have souls, but that's a completely different topic, however still interesting.
If I don't have the necessary funds to raise a kid then I don't want him \her a life In poverty.
And if you don't feel bad for killing a fly.. Or even , for supporting slaughterhouses, then you should also go okay with abortion.
Did you really just compare the life of a human to a fly?
@BelleGirl21 Just because it's another specie doesn't mean the life of a fly is worthless
@BelleGirl21 @olivia183 Yes that is what I'm saying. You don't necessarily have to think of a small creature's life, like a fly, but think of all the sheep, fish, cow, pig, chicken that we eat. And I'm not saying that killing those animals are nice, though I'm not vegetarian but luckily I never had to think of abortion luckily.
Then why are murder and rape illegal then, if it's doesn't matter why we do to others why stop at abortion, why not go full kill all humans living in poverty? Why not kill all scribbled or handicapped people with less than normal life quality?
A tiny glob of cells without a brain that gets aborted is not as important as a woman getting raped, trust me
@love2run13 Obviously not, nobody is arguing that. When however the cells is no-longer just cells but a child with a brain, then abortion is as important as a woman getting raped. Murder is as important as rape, more so even.
It's both in my opinion.
You're right that it is technically life but as it can affect, and at times endanger, the life of the mother drastically, they deserve a choice especially in cases of rape. There are no easy choices on this matter though. Whatever stance you take involves a certain grey morality.
What would help in this debate is "pro-lifers" seeing the effect of pregnancy on women and "pro-choicers" (if that's a word) seeing the effect of childbirth on men and on not seeing the embryo as an inanimate object that is only alive if they deem it so.
Good answer, I do agree about allowing abortion in case of rape, incest (child abuse), if the mothers life or health is endangers by the pregnancy, in short the way is uses to be before the current laws. On regular circumstances I don't believe the pa rants should have a choice, they have in fact already made it, when they have sex without proper birth control and didn't use the morning after pill. Abortion is too invasive and too serious to uses as late birth control.
Thank you. I understand why but I would be in favour of there being a certain time frame on the mother making a choice. Though complete, unlimited access to abortions is only tolerable if you only see one side of the argument.
Excellent although to be honest i expected this to be another pro death article.
Pro abortion means you believe your individuality is superior to another's. That you believe some human beings are of lesser human dignity than your own.
That one persons ability to void their irresponsibility under the nanny state overrules the life of another human being. Scientifically there is no debate on whether the life form is human and even have a name for it, we know for a fact that it is but people's unwillingness to be responsible is a bog part of it
Boy, you are inviting a shit tornado. You do know that, right?
People who are pro choice are usually girls who say things like "it's MY body, I can do whatever I want". What about your child's body? Who the fuck are you to decide what should happen to your baby's body? And future. And life. Huh? Whores just don't want to deal with the consequences of being so fucking dumb... that's why they are pro choice. Choice for the mother, none for the baby and often none for the father as well.
To those who disagree, leave your down vote and move along. I'm only here to state my opinion. I'm not leaving shitstorm on other people's opinions, so don't leave your shit on mine too. OK?
I know, but shit storms are inevitable when talking about abortion, gay rights, feminism, religion etc.. Subjects that are very divisive in nature, but if only one or two GaG'er think a bit about what principles they personally wish was applyed and why, then I see it as a success.
If only... Those topics has been discussed more than enough times. It gets old because the same shitstorms keep happening again and again
WOW yea I will do whatever I want with MY body cuz if I accidentally get pregnant even when I'm on birthcontrol (yes, it happens), I don't want to be forced into 9 months of pregnancy at least, 20+ years of my life devoted to some kid I didn't even want. No thanks, not when I can just not have the child in the first place
Yea so you're egoistic. OK. My god, how hard is it to understand that I DON'T FUCKING WANT A DISCUSSION! LEAVE ME ALONE!
What is morally right to you might be different for others. And do you really think the outlawing of safe abortions would prevent dangerous ones? Hell no. Then you're putting the life of a living mother and a fetus in danger. Or in your case, that would account for 2 people.
I know, but it would be less than the 40 million annually we have now. There are no easy deal here.
Just don't try and meddle in people's business. You have every right to express your opinion, but what other people decide to do with their bodies has nothing to do with you or even affects you remotely.
Really.. then you don't understand politic or democracy, that is how policies are changed. Arguing changes influencing media etc. until some day the power shifts in your favour.
Some policies don't need to be changed. This is one of them. The life of a mother and her wellbeing is much more valuable than the life of an unthinking fetus. Why ruin someone else's life by forcing them to do something they don't want to?
"Some policies don't need to be changed" ... yes but they did when abortion was legalised, so that does happen. "The life of a mother and her wellbeing is much more valuable than the life of an unthinking fetus." ... how about hose thinking babies, they are killed as well? "Why ruin someone else's life by forcing them to do something they don't want to" ... unless raped, they made that choice, nobody forced them to not use contraception. But yes, abortion have some up's as well, it cheaper for the taxpayers as well.
Also, most abortions through proper family planning clinics (pp discluded) raise money via charity funds or help give ideas to their patients about how to raise the proper amounts of money. Also, I said unthinking fetus for a reason. I certainly do believe there is a point in a pregnancy where an abortion should no longer be available unless due to medical reasons, and there are already restrictions on that. And yes, the person did make a choice to have sex. All people do it. Sometimes out of just downright stupidity and sometimes a crazy accident. Just be happy they are taking care of it and not burdening society with another "problem baby" who would more than likely live a sad life after birth. You say you are pro life, but like another take on this site said, you are really just pro birth. You only care about the fetus when it's a fetus, not what it's gonna grow up to be like. I think you and I both know that a lot of children are born into the ghettos with horrible families.
unsafe illegal abortions are the only ones that should exist.
In the UK, 10.5% is done after week 12, 89% of terminations occurred under the 12 week. However from week 8-10, the child can feel pain. So clearly the law as they are is not what you seems to advocate. Pre week 8 you can argue it's have no brain activity or pain, so it technical in a 'brain dead' stage, I could I suppose understand why some might thing abortion until then is ok, but clearly after week 8 there are no excuses like that. I am not just pro-birth, I am pro principals and moral including how we are behaving in general. I am not a 'you are going to hell' screamer (I don't believe in hell actually, since I believe in the Bible and it doesn't support the notion of hell). I know what you mean by pro-birth, I see the same hypocrisy I am however not one of those hypocrites. "born into the ghettos with horrible families" any child will prefer life in a ghettos with a horrible familie to death.. clearly the child's opinion is not what you care for, it's the parents and society.
I know kids who grew up in shitty households. Trust me, they're better off dead, which actually might happen one day. They're into gang violence and drugs and alcohol and don't have nearly the amount of opportunity to grow into a proper adult. Taxpayer money will take care of them the rest of their life. I live an hour away from the most dangerous city in the US, and even though the difference in nigh and day, I'm down there more than enough to see the outcomes of having children in shitty homes. But I now know for sure you are religious, so I know this argument is futile lol.
Argument with atheists are equally futile, when logic, reason and principals are absent in there thinking. It's not atheists vs religious nut case that's is the issues, it's the principals vs. self-interest.. that's is the issue. "they're better off dead" that is your assessment not theirs, they properly fight to the death in order to survive, just proving how valuable life is to them, despite your opinion. Argument based on facts works, but only to people who are not basing their opinions on self-interest and feelings alone. So what is your opinion based on, are you interest in fact and principals and do you feel empathy?
I'm not an athiest, and I believe in facts and the opinion that the parent who is allowing the child to reside and pretty much take over their life (or not) has the ultimate decision. Kids don't have power over their parents after they are born, so sure as hell a fetus wouldn't.
You do realise, that what you said was an opinion based on feeling not fact or principals - at least you absent of arguments indicates that. It was a simple statement of what you feel is right, not a fact that it is so, nor did you define a principle on wish you based you opinion on. Fact: "parent who is allowing the child to reside and pretty much take over their life (or not) has the ultimate decision", true, but not over life and death, so your point is? Fact: " Kids don't have power over their parents after they are born, so sure as hell a fetus wouldn't."... nor does the foetus, so your point is? The parents chooses to have sex without proper birth control, they choose not to not use the morning after pill. They have made their chooses because they are in fact in power, so what are you talking about?
I think all the controversy over abortion is really just controversy over women having sex. There are so many ways to reduce the motivation for abortions by making child birth and child raising less desperate, but no one wants to do those things. Instead, the "pro-life" people also seem to want the raising of a child to be as horrible of a situation as possible. This makes no sense, unless you think of children as a punishment for having sex. In that case, yes, raising a child should remain a desperate situation, and abortions should be banned. That way if a girl decides to have sex and gets pregnant, her life is ruined. God wins, right?
What man isn't interest in women having sex, who could we have sex with if no women had sex... this is a stupid argument. Women can have sex and use contraception, and if it fails use the morning after pill. Plenty of options, so that argument is invalided in the west today.
It would be invalid if the "pro-life" people weren't also adamantly opposed to contraception and didn't preach abstinence as the only solution. But alas..
I have never been opposed to contraception on the contrary, especially if you are also promiscuous (and let's face the bulk of abortion are done by promiscuous women) then a condom is only way to have some protection against STD's. I would preach abstinence pre-married only (not post), and only for Christians, for non Christians however they can do wherever they like and do anyway so why bother. For Christians it's a duty and those who claim to be Christians, but don't follow Christianity... I'll say they are truly disqualifies as Christians, however that is not for me to judge, God will do that - but it certainly is hypocrisy.
that's a very good way to look at it, in my opinion. Now... if you could just convince the rest of the Christians of it, maybe we wouldn't have abstinence-only education in high schools or legislation banning and/or defunding contraceptives..
I'm pro-choice. No one should interfere with a women's choice when it comes to her body. Also it's better to provide a safe clean environment for abortions rather then having them to resort to underground procedures or "home remedies".
I don't agree with the "women's choice when it comes to her body" for the reason stated, however the "safe clean environment" is a solid argument, in a way you saying 'the lesser of two evils'.
But the baby is not her body, and her baby is a living being with unique DNA.
It's not a baby yet and is using me to survive.
Not a baby yet depends on your definition and the age of the baby in question, we are killing babies for sure. I keep using the 24 week example because it's the most obvious evidence of that being the case.
no the back alley abortions should be the only ones to exist. why should we allow the murder of children.
it is a baby life begins at conception and you choosing to have sex is consenting to the possibility that your body may be a baby oven for nine months. your rights are not being infringed on because you are forced to take personal responsibility thats just called being a grown up.
@dudeman So you rather have the mother and "baby" both die in a "back alley abortion"? Whatever floats your boat. Are you also willing to provide the money for the mother to take care of this baby if she goes full term? I doubt it. The same people trying to trample on a woman's right for abortion are the same people fighting funding for services that provide help for people who don't have the money or resources to give the kid a decent life. Homeless people and children starving. Even the ones who find shelter still don't have the means to have a meal every day, decent clothes for school, and supplies. But you stopped caring after you stepped on a woman's right for abortion.
yes i would rather have the mom die also. also why should we as a society pay for a women irresponsible sexual choices and why should a baby be killed because of it. women should just accept the responsibility for their actions. so yes lets increase government spending and let western civilization crumble simply because women refuse to act responsibly with the power of their sexuality,.
@dudeman Haha, in the end you promote killing and torture. Yet you have an issue with abortions. Okay.
Great take 👏👏👏👏
I think abortion is awful but at the same time women have the right to do what they please. If I got pregnant I don't think I'd be able to abort because of my religious beliefs. Only way I could abort is if I know my baby will have a mental defect or if i was raped.
"women have the right to do what they please" .. not really, murder is not a woman choice, why should abortion be? "able to abort because of my religious beliefs" .. what does you religion say about abortion, if I may ask?
A woman has a right to her body. A child growing in her is HER body. You and no one else has any right to take away the freedom to do with herself as she pleases. I get rally sick of men trying to control women. I'm a christian obviously my religion doesn't tolerate murder.
The Bible say the law of Moses was from God and is a perfect law, and the law of Moses say abortion is murder. Hence God said abortion is murder, therefore Christians are against abortion, so you are either not a Christian or yore against abortion - you can be either, but you can't be both.
Maybe think of this (although not related to religion at all):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMwkQVpy98A
I can be a christian and be okay with abortion. I'm okay with gay marriage too. Who are you to tell me if I can't be a christian or not? I love everyone as God instructs me too. I'm letting God do the judging.
Ok, this is really a shift of subject. But you argue you can call yourself anything no matter what you believe in.' So I can say I don't believe in God but I am a Christian and you'll say ok you are a Christian then because you said you where... I do obviously not share your definition. Bottom line is, you claim to be Christian but do still believe in abortion, although it's awful you still supports it. Even if the Bible prohibits it you still supports the awful abortion, you yourself wound't use. Why, because "women have the right to do what they please" even when it's against the Bible. It not really possible to agree with you on that. However, I do partly agree with this "Only way I could abort is if I know my baby will have a mental defect or if i was raped." ... rape or incest is a crimed committed by a rapist, hence an abortion is on his head, so I can live with the murder of the child as I see it as a naturally result of his rape. Obliviously I'll have him charged of murder.
Im pro life, my dad was one of those "inconvinient" babies. My grandmother found out she was pregnant at 17 with my dad. When her parents found out they kicked her out of their house to fend for herself; she was forced to marry her abusive boyfriend. Years later he left her for someone else and she married my grandfather. My dad was her only child. Had abortion been legalized 3 years earlier my dad would most likely not have been born, my brother and I would not have existed, and my daughter wouldn't be here. Four lives extinguished from "a right to choose". You're not just murdering one baby, you're wiping out the generations to come. Watching my baby on ultrasound at 10 and 21 weeks i can't imagine how someone can justify ripping him or her out of his or her environment to die in pieces on a table.
Thanks for your story.
How would you know if your grandmother would had taken the abortion? seriously she could had gotten a abortion anyway during that time if she wanted to. When abortions were illegal women went out and did them illegally anyway. You using "if abortion was legal I wouldn't be born" is not a really good defense for pro life. Just saying.
Also just because abortion is legal doesn't mean every single woman will go out there and do it so.
Saying abortion is wrong because you wouldn't be here is not only slightly egotistical but... odd. Should my boyfriend cum in me as to not extinguish the potential babies we could have? What do you mean by extinguished? Something has to be lit before it can be extinguished, so technically-only your father's life force would have been put out. @Wat3L1ly Also, abortions that late are rare and are usually only done because the baby is highly defective and would most likely not live a satisfying life. The overwhelming majority of abortions do not happen when a mother is 5 months pregnant.
The moral of the story is that if you are not responsible to someone else life then you don't have the right to make life decisions for those people.
Rather than be greedy and try to bring out as many lives as possible, wouldn't it be better to focus on helping those who actually need help? There are hungry, desperate and beaten down folks out there needing a hand and people are focusing on something irrelevant to them?
One doesn't exclude the other. However, you can't defend an injustice by saying "wouldn't it be better to focus on helping some one else who need help". We should fight all kinds of injustice abortion included. And yes fighting only to save unborn children but letting millions of born children suffer is hypocritical. But all I can do is argue and maybe, just maybe make one or two people thing about why they really support abortion. That is the extent of what I can do. The world will be just as unjust tomorrow as it was yesterday.
Actually no, you have a finite resource, time and effort. You don't want to do everything and fail at them all. Do one thing at a time. Pick the one you can do and is the most effective. You can do more than argue. Donate your income. A couple of dollars can save a person life if you know where to donate. Injustice, unfairness and the whole evil things occur everyday right in front of you. You don't have to do anything. If you do, pick the one that you are certain is going to help rather some controversy.
That's should stop any democratic person fighting for or debating what he or she believes in.
I think it depends on how you see it. People who see it in a bad way can think of it as murder, it's murder to them, where people who are for it can see it differently
I know people do see it differently. Slave owners didn't see the slaves as human either, that didn't make then right though. So the issues is not what people 'think', the issues is what is real.
That's true. Opinions aren't facts and everyone is gonna have different opinions on things but that doesn't mean that they're right. There's always a reality, the truth that you can't change. It really shouldn't matter what people think or say. The only thing that should matter is the reality. And I'm a logical person so this makes perfect sense to me and this is how I always talk. More logic and less bullshit
Yes, we need more logic and less bullshit in politics.
Seriously. Why can't that be?
Why can't there by logic and fact in politics - well essentially because most people let their feeling and self-interest decide their politics. Abortion is just a more extreme example of how self-interest makes the decision for most.
I think it's just so stupid
I believe abortion is a someone's choice and no one should be able to take your decision from you or have the right to command you to do something you don't want to, it will always end up badly
1. We do that all the time - "no one should be able to take your decision from you" 2. That someone, is every member of society this is about moral and not a personal choice, since someone else's life is involved - someone's choice
1. please give examples of your choice is taken from you 2. how is pregnancy not personal? since it involves the person
1. Conscription is done all the time, incl. the USA in case of total war. The decision of what to do with your life, or not to kill is taken away from you as a soldier at war. Our laws limits our operational freedom all the time, like we can't smoke wherever we pleases that's a limitation of our personal freedom. You can't drink and drive. Almost all law are somehow a limitation of our freedom, for the greater good of society or for consideration of others rights and freedom. 2. It ceases to be personal when it involves somebody else's life, otherwise rape and murder would be personal as well. But it isn't because it involves others. Our choices and options are limited all the time in consider ration of others. Abortion involves a unborn child, hence is not solely a personal matter, and it's also why it's regulated by law today and why is was once illegal altogether.
1. War - people sign up for (personal choice, and contract you sign when you join the military, drinking and drive isn't in the same category as war or a solider following orders in the war, Abortion is legal, so you just defeated you own statement, abortion help for a " greater good of society " and still a personal choice that if woman had an abortion today doesn't affect your life at all, but significantly effects hers, and you should command or dictate what she can or can't do 2. abortion only affects the woman's life not another person I really don't understand why, you really want to command another person, one you have never met and doesn't effect you on a subject that is completely legal, safe procedure or medicine, and really a decison/conversation between a woman and her doctor
I do not want to command another person, never did I just don't want this injustice to continue indefinitely. 1. The USA had conscription during WW2, conscription are men that did NOT sign up for it but are forced by the state - men only, so also sexist in nature I suppose. "drinking and drive isn't in the same category as war or a solider following orders" I never said it was, I gave examples of how choice are taken from us all the time. It's the very nature of laws to make restrictions hence limiting our choices. "Abortion is legal" true, but so was slavery once, atrocities are done in the name of the law all the time. The law is instituted based not only on moral or fairness but also based political consensus. 2. Not really, you forget about the child inside the women, it's a separate human being I can assures you I would argue against slavery had I been alive 150 years ago, just because it's legal doesn't make it right or victim free.
Abortion doesn't equal to slavery, and to use this as a comparison is an insult, please learn the history of slavery (years of discrimination based on a person's skin color, lynching, public whippings, rape constantly, families constantly broken up and sold away, people being cooked alive, forced to kill others who learn how to read or any form of basic education, worked to death, pulled apart by horses or dogs, or being beaten to death for just look at person of different race or you were killed just for sport or because someone was bored) the next time you want to use it as an example to abortion " Not really, you forget about the child inside the women, it's a separate human being" - not a separate being if it can't live on it own, still a woman choice, a tumor is technically alive but you don't get upset when people remove, which is still a decision person and there doctor, many people get abortions because of medical mother and child die, mother or child die,
mother abort so they don't have to watch their newborn die within a few minutes, rape, if you say they should keep the baby if they are rape, is sadistic, or financially they can't afford it and they can't live with the idea of a child constantly starving to death, but your augment is they should be forced regardless of the reason and when the child is born and lives in a life of suffering, that cool you get to sleep better at night because you did something you think is great and couldn't care less about the quality of life of child, but as long as the mother suffers in the end
"Abortion doesn't equal to slavery" and nobody said it did, was I said was atrocities by law is done all the time, the law can therefore not be uses as an argument to support atrocious acts with innocent victims. Bottom line the law can be unjust, so legality alone doesn't prove anything. "not a separate being if it can't live on it own" - false, separate human DNA and alive, and at some point with beating hart, full functional brain and capabilities to feel pain. "still a woman choice" only by current law "a tumor is technically alive but you don't get upset when people remove" nope a tumour is living cells not alive, a child is alive a tumour is living big difference. "many people get abortions because of medical mother and child die" not very many no, but in those cases just like rape, incest abortion may be justifies. But the right to free abortion is something different, it's essentially birth-control gone wrong.
"financially they can't afford it" then they (both parents) have to start being less selfish, and face up to the natural consequence of their actions - pregnancy is a natural consequence of unprotected sex, during a certain time of month for women. "they can't live with the idea of a child constantly starving" this is not the case in the western world and the right to free abortion is only here. "starve to death" that would be criminal neglect of the child, a criminal offence.
you keep using war and slavery which in an conversation of abortion, which you were equating them to it so quit lying on that point it clear from "Separate human DNA" statement tells me you haven't had biology or genetics class which I've taken both, DNA is in everything in the body, skin, hair, blood, anything that have to do with cellular repair or growth, a growing fetus, isn't a unique or separate DNA, it has genetic similarity from mother and father otherwise paternity wouldn't be possible abortion became legal because so many women were dying because they were performing their own and too many parents had to bury their children a tumor is a cell growth unable to go through cell apoptosis which is a clump of living cell unable to die abortions which mother and/or child are many reason parents get abortions abortions aren't free, they are $500 to $800 each time, so no they aren't a ridiculous notion of birth control, it is emotion and tough decision for mothers to go through
Thanks for admitting that you want people to suffer because it makes you feel better, even though it doesn't effect you They are many children now starving in the US today and no their current parents aren't in jail, it constantly in the news, there are so many documentaries and abortion is free in many countries like China, but not the US, next time please do some research before you want repeat propaganda
"war and slavery" is analogies for how we are forced again our will by the law, not a comparison for anything else. Please try to understand what I am sying rather than accusing me of opinions I don't have. "Separate human DNA" please reread the subject, the growing foetus DOES have a unique AND separate DNA, yes it has genetic similarity's from both the mother and father, it''s a mix but separate and unique (unless identical twins) DNA for sure. Elementary biology 101. "tumor" is living cells not a separate life, sure you can arguer until some point where it becomes a foetus, then is just living cells as well - maybe so, I'll let the benefit of the doubt be in you favour. However at some point, about week 9 or so, that is clearly no longer the cases. I didn't say every abortion is birth-control, I am not even saying abortion can't be justifies in some extreme cases (like rape or saving the mothers health or life).
I am saying the freedom of abortion is baseless and is often uses as a delayed birth-control - some do it because the child is sick, having the wrong gender, the wrong farther etc., but often simply because they found out too late). No mother have the right to kill her child without good cause, as it used to be 50 years ago. "... admitting that you want people to suffer" of course I don't want people to suffer, I only want them to not kill in order to not avoid the natural consequence of their own actions. Abortion can be justified, but most of the time it isn't, it's simply a convenience of escape the bad side effect of a certain behaviours. " many children now starving in the US today" fair enough but still a separate issues, I am pleases the EU are more civilised than the US, with universal healthcare and faire welfare systems. The issue you mentioned is about US domestic welfare policy, rather than abortion policy.
Yes abortion is legal in China and India for that matter, still is no a justification. Only they do have some serious poverty issues, overpopulation and to some extent issues regarding accesses to birth-control. Non of those excuses are valid for the US or EU, hence doesn't justify abortion in Tennessee or Germany.
DNA isn't separate or unique, genetic disorder carried from mother or father, genealogy (which test looks for common family markers on the alleles, common medical problems like diabetes, stroke, or high blood pressure, if DNA was separate or unique from the parents then they wouldn't have any of their parents genetic disorders, which is why when you go to the doctor they ask for your family medical history, and there isn't elementary biology 101, maybe you should take BIO 1 You keep mention "natural consequence", which means you want them to be punish, it wouldn't be a consequence without some crime you think they committed, and how many abortion have you been present for and ask why they are getting it, because mostly it Tumor - are still living cells and can't live outside the body, so now you are nitpicking on what is a life or not And I didn't mention Tennessee so I don't know why it relevant or different US seeing that Tennessee is apart of the US
Every hum being have unique* DNA, a child have a mixture of genre from BOTH parents, had they had the same DNA as one, they would have been clones. It's really BIO 1 to know this. Hence the child's DNA is both unique and separate from the mother, since it have only about 50% from the mother. Natural consequence meaning, if I overeat a lot of sugar and fat, I'll get fat, that is the natural consequence. It's not a punishment, it's simple the effete of the cause of overeating, nothing more or less. Then having fat-suction instead of regulating your eating habits would be the wrong way of dealing with it. About nitpicking tumours, I am simply saying living and being a individuals is not the same. Any living plant or bacteria is alive, but they are not living individuals/persons or whatever you want to called it. Tennessee and Germany was two random picked examples of the states of the US and EU respectively. *identical twins excepted of course, then two have the same DNA