The Ugliest Side Of Abortion Laws

[Anonymous]

As a society, we recognize that incest and rape are situations in which a woman was not given the right to chose to have sex. We recognize under law even, that rape is forcible as is incest particularly when the other individual is older and in the care of the victim. Yet instead of just punishing the perpetrators for this action, some instead seek to additionally punish the victims by saying that they should not only be forced to have the child out of incest and/or rape, but raise it as well. Some states are even seeking legislation to convict the potential mothers in the case of incest and rape, of murder, should they chose to have an abortion, even if their own lives are at risk. It's kind of hard to understand how someone can advocate so hard for life, but then if the actual potential mother is at risk, all of a sudden, it's okay that she dies? Irony...define it.

I can only gather that most of these people advocating that rape and incest victims should be forced to have these children, fall under a few categories. They are men who can not possibly ever get pregnant from rape or incest. These are people who have never had a family member or friend experience pregnancy after rape or incest. Or these are people who have never had to deal with the life long psychological consequences to both potential mother and child. None of these people even think about the fact that these often young victims have to go to school or a job and have people ask about the father or how they got pregnant so young and what wounds that will continuously open up.

What does that say about us as a society when we seek to punish victims of crimes we recognize as crimes, even though, they themselves are innocent? You also have to realize that in many cases, these victims are still children. That is to say you expect a 12 year old somewhere who is the victim of incest and/or rape by her father or sibling or other person, to now raise a child because she was raped. What 12 year old do you know who is ready to do that, let alone while she's dealing with actually having been raped by someone she may have trusted or a perfect stranger?

Can you honestly look a 12 year old incest or rape victim in the face and say she should be forced to raise a child she never asked or consented to have in the first place just so YOU can sleep at night with your views intact? Are you willing to say that to your own child or your sibling if that happened to them? Would you be able to say that to your wife if she was the victim of rape? Are you also in that case, willing to raise the rapists child? I can't say those things to a victim. I won't, and never will. That is to me saying that the rapists has far more rights to do what he has done, than the actual victim has to actually make any choices as to what to do after she has been raped or the victim of incest.

If you are pro-life, I believe you have the right to be pro-life when it concerns yourself and your own body or that of the person you are sleeping with, but I don't think it ever gives you the right to decide for someone else, especially in the case of young girls and women that have gone through forced sex and molestation and incest. You're not living their lives, you're not having to raise that potential child, you're not going to have to deal with the after affects as a spectator that may not even know them or their situation.

To me, this argument that rape/incest victims should not have a right to chose is saying that you condone rape and incest. It really is. You're saying, everything that happens before and afterwards is a-okay to you, and worse, some even hold it up, and say, well rape and incest are somehow a part of God's plans for that person. I mean seriously, what kind of God is that that would subject a young girl or woman to being raped and molested by someone she trusts? That's not a God I will ever believe in, if that's what God is all about for you.

It's easy to sign off on something that can't or hasn't personally affected you, and even if it has, just because you handle it a certain way, doesn't mean everyone can undergo the same. We're talking about trauma, violation, rape, and incest, not some kids who got drunk one night and didn't use a condom. Even with adoption, people make it seem like it is so easy to give up your kid as if you just walk away and never think of them again. You may be giving up your kid to a system that throws them away and forgets about them like so many kids in foster care and the adoption system that have been in the system their entire lives.

There is no easy solution, but I do believe there is room for you to believe in pro-life for yourself, and others to believe in pro-choice for themselves, but the minute you start thinking you're entitled to decide for someone else what they can and can't do with their bodies, where does that end exactly? How much are you personally willing to standby and let someone make choices about your health and your body and your rights even if you disagree with them completely? It's a slippery slippery slope there.

[lexythelou22]

The people who argue that no one should be allowed to abort because it's "murder" are people who obviously haven't been int he situation. They weren't raped, struggled through countless hours of useless therapy and hundreds of panic attacks or self harm attempts, then denied the right to get rid of the reminder inside of them that they know will tip them over the edge. They haven't watched their daughters, sisters, or wives dying slowly and painfully because their child is killing them from the inside and they can't save themselves. They haven't lived in severe poverty or had to visit food banks just to support themselves, then be told they have to support for a whole new human simply because there was an accident and a child was conceived.
None of those people care about what happens to the child in the long run, or even the mother. They will refuse to let the child be "murdered", then do nothing as that child dies a slow death from starvation, homelessness in the cold, or the struggle of being shoved into an already overcrowded system of unadopted children.
I agree with your MyTake 100%. Just like you said, if you want to be pro-life, then believe that, but don't try to tell anyone else what they can or cannot do.

[RationalMale]

Abortions because of rape or incest are roughly 1% of abortions. There's been about 54 million abortions in the USA since it was mass legalized over the will of the people. You want to talk about the ugly side? That means that well over 52 million children in the USA have been killed in the womb by their own mothers.

It's estimated that about 11 million people, tops, died in the Holocaust. American women have slaughtered over 4 times that many... of their own children. And yet, we are told men are the irresponsible ones in the USA.

[myTake Owner]

So forcing a woman or a young girl to have a child is okay with you in the case of rape/incest? You're okay with raising a rapists child if it were your wife or girlfriend? You'd tell a sister she had to have that child? We want to talk about choices, but no one is actually allowing these victims to actually decide for once in their case, what to do.

[Ratiocinative]

So murdering a child is okay in the case of rape/incest? That's just as suck and evil as people who support Islamic honor killings where a man can murder his wife or daughter if they were a victim of rape.

[myTake Owner]

@Ratiocinative is rape and incest okay in your book?

[tyber1]

If it was against the will of the people, we wouldn't have 50 million abortions. The truth is that people who are pro-life and people who are pro-choice both make up about half of the population. The will of the people does not favor one side.

[TuMeManques]

I will never understand how people can just ignore the stats. It's 1% people and almost no one thinks that 1% should be forced into having the babies.

[zagor]

@Ratiocinative 50 cells does not a child make.

[sedrftvgyhujik]

"slaughtered" If your counting what could have been a baby
How many have you killed wanking then? "RationalMale"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

[RationalMale]

Why not? We have no problem forcing men to do the same. Hell male victims of statutory rape get billed for child support.

[efefefefef]

" is rape and incest okay in your book?" does abortion make rape and incest okay in your book?

[RationalMale]

Why dont you provide some link on how many abortions are due to rape or incest? Maybe because the only links show over 52 million children killed because the mother couldn't be responsible? Go google 'kermit gosnell' and see the holocaust worthy horrors 'womens rights' have brought us to.

[Muglintar]

is it ok in your book to answer one crime by another?

[FashionQueen86]

I don't think a child resulting in rape doesn't mean it's less important. I just see two innocent victims. If I were in the situation, I would like think I will able to carry the child, becuase to me, if I got rid of him/her, I don't think I'd live with myself. People are different with these things, but since I'm not in the situation, I can't really say what the woman should feel. Rape alone, is terrible enough to live and deal with.

[4Elements]

Honestly prolife people need to put their money where their mouths are. Unless you pledge to adopt every single unwanted child born to a mother who does not want them, for 18 years, with no help or support, you have no right to say jack shit. You care about life so much? I don't see you adopting or fostering all the unwanted children in the world! You go ahead and do that, then we can talk about you ignorant people feeling the need to dominate women's wombs. A potential child does not overrule a life.

[RationalMale]

@4Elements... my family did adopt a child, a little girl. Took so dang long too and they went through what seemed like eons of paperwork and classes. My father was also an adopted child.

[meowcow]

There's a lot of logical gaps in your argument here. The biggest flaw in your argument is that you assume people don't care simply because they haven't gone through it. Strangely, you state that you want people to endure it to know what it's like. Sounds petty to me.

Lawmakers and politicians make decisions on these subjects based on what they believe is the best interest for the country and its population. That being said, there is no law or political decision that has EVER satisfied both sides of the party. Laws preventing abortion from incest and rape are not punitive measures as you see it. They are laws based on morality where lawmakers and politicians have decided that HUMAN LIFE, regardless of its origin, age or state of development, is more important than the emotional and psychological welfare of the mother. You obviously don't value human life when it is in an embryonic stage. But to some (mostly religious people), an embryo is no different than a full grown human being. So aborting a pregnancy is the equivalent of killing a teenager. That's how you need to look at it to understand the rationale. Nobody rational person would think that the emotional welfare of one person is worth more than the life of a teenager (or an embryo).

It's not about the government feeling that they're entitled to make decisions on abortion for a woman. It is essentially that the government and the law recognizes an embryo as an independent life form, and that the mother has no right to decide whether to kill/abort that life.

Yes the baby is growing inside you, but... does that constitute ownership over a life? And does it entitle the mother to kill/abort another human on a whim? The abortion law is there to protect those who do not yet have a voice.

[Brokenheartedx]

Most abortions are women who can't afford to raise baby... now those against abortion should put themselves in those women's shoes.. if you can't afford a baby don't have it or would they rather the woman have a baby and then moan about how it's a drain on society...

So either way the woman is damned if she does or damned if she doesn't..

To me personally it's now 2016 someone can do what they like with their own bodies...
I don't judge folk on if they have abortions or not, if they are having abortions then it's because they felt they had nothing to offer the child, how dare anyone judge someone who can't afford to raise child.. how many kids are living in orphanages around the world unwanted and unloved? Those anti abortion comments how many kids in orphanages will you be taking in? Abortions would stop if people were adopting more kids..

I'd have an abortion of i found out my kid was severely disabled and baby would die within hours of being born..
I'd have an abortion if I couldn't afford to raise child..
I'd have an abortion if baby was result of rape.. I wouldn't love it knowing how it was conceived sorry

That's 3 reasons right there why I would have an abortion...

[Sara413]

The fucked up thing is that a lot of times the same people who would deny the right to abort to low income women are the same who'd deny accissbleand affordable birth control to them... and that right there tells you just where their moral compass lies... it's not about "life" at all, it's about punishing women for having sex. Abortion should be a last resort. And for most m women who've had one or who would have one, it is. But for a lot of women, birth control isn't even an option. If they can't afford he $35-50 a month for birth control, how the fuck does anyone expect them to raise a kid? Not only is it going to be damn near impossible for them to provide for the kid, financial stress is the number one key indicator that a family is at risk for abuse. Poverty is a bad situation to force children into. When it comes to reproductive rights, our number one goal should be to make birth control accessible and affordable to all. Number 2 should be to ensure that when that fails,

[Sara413]

Abortion remains a valid and accessible option. We should value raising healthy kids over raising all the mistakes that happen.

[Brokenheartedx]

As far as I'm concerned those anti abortionists that despise a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy, might want to take a couple of adoptive children in.. feed clothe and love that child.. I would rather a drug addict or an alkie abort their kids if it stopped many deaths of young babies through neglect as well. As for men taking the moral high ground on a woman's right, how many women through their lives have they had unprotected sex with? One night stands and having a laugh with their mates who they banged.. How many fell pregnant and these men never bothered to check up on the girls they had sex with? Exactly not many.. it's just a step up from their youth another way to look their noses down on women. A real man would be supportive of a woman's choice the men that's vocal are the ones that would rather oppress women.

[Xfitchick]

Nobody is allowed to tell someone else how he should believe or organise his life. You can be against abortion, but that is your believe and it should only affect your life and not that of the others. And the same applies to other ethical questions like e. g. euthanasia. But our society is very hypocritic. Killing people is considered murder, but If you wear a uniform, you are allowed to do for the so called sake of the group you fight for.

[JiminsHoe]

Ok honestly, yes the mother and the father were irresponsible to have unprotected sex. But, condoms break all the time, and are you really going to prevent people from having sex?
Its the woman's body, she should be able to do whatever she wants with it. Like I know its pretty fucking dark and horrible to kill an unborn child, but life has twists and turns and sometimes unplanned things happen, but no one should be able to control what a woman does and does not do with child, its none of anyone's business but hers. Are you really going to make a woman give birth, which is fucking painful and hemorrhage is always out there to possibly stab you in the back. And what happens when she does give birth to this so called baby? She doesn't want it, it gets sent to a foster home, and have to be reminded that their birth parents didn't want them, GREAT.

[JiminsHoe]

has*

[curiousnorway]

The child's body isn't the mother's body. If abortion should be allowed, killing born people should also be legal. Killing is killing.

[myTake Owner]

@curiousnorway if you think a bunch of pre-mature cells is a human being, than every time you jack off we should prosecute you for murder because those are "potential children." You cannot murder something that does not have any capacity whatsoever to think or feel any pain. We cannot murder your sperm, no more than you can murder those cells that have yet to even develop into a viable human being.

[JiminsHoe]

I agree with the take owner, its rather ridiculous and pointless to say an unborn fetus is the same exact thing as a living person, they haven't yet developed love for their mother and father and friends, appreciation for the world (especially considering they're not even in it yet). Let's say you have a pot, just a plain clay one, worth nothing really, if you don't like the shape you can always start over, correct? But once you paint it with lets say a special precious stone pigment that very rare, you can't start over. Think of the paint as knowledge, experience, morals, deep emotions. These things haven't yet been embedded into an unborn human being like they have on a living person. So you really can't compare the two.

[lumos]

In general I feel like a pregnancy shouldn't be seen as a "punishment" because the mother had "irresponsible sex" (newsflash: you can get pregnant even if you follow contraceptive instructions to a T because they are 99% effective, not 100%).
A pregnancy is not punished. Girls who accidentally got pregnant should not be punished. How can you claim to value life so much when you don't care about the life of the mother? You don't care about the life of the child, who will either grow up in a home where it was unwanted, or might have to go through some tough times in the adoption/foster care system? How can you say you value life, when you only care about the kid's life as long as it's in the uterus? As soon as it's born, you don't care if it lives with parents who didn't wants it, if the family ends up in poverty because they couldn't afford the kid, if it gets emotional trauma from being adopted etc.
Most abortions occur when the "baby" is just a zygote. It doesn't even have its own body yet, technically. It's just a lump of cells. It can't think or feel. It's completely unaware of its own existence. Why does that lump of cells have more rights than a fully functioning, thinking, feeling, breathing, living human being who would be traumatized emotionally, physically and maybe even financially by bringing that zygote to term?
Should we also start advocating for the life of cancer cells too?

[lumos]

A pregnancy is not a punishment*

[Sara413]

Perfect comment.

[myTake Owner]

I totally agree, especially in the cases I'm talking about. Why is it always someone's business what happens with a woman's body, other than that woman. The only people who should have any power to make this type of decision is the woman or girl involved and the person she slept with, outside of cases of rape/incest. That's it.

[lumos]

Right. And even then the girl/woman has the final say.

[Vesuvius87]

I would be damn aborting to the nearest clinic if I were raped. I'm not raising a child that was the product of a lowlife that forced sex on me, robbing me of my choice, consent and humanity overall.

I get to choose when I freaking want to have sex and have a child with someone I care (preferable within a marriage).

[curiousnorway]

Just because a human committing a seriously crime against you doesn't mean you have the right to do something seriously wrong either. The criminal person who rapes doesn't necessary care about the children and why should their act make you affect a innocent life negatively? I thinks every human beings should get a chance in the life. If you don't want children, you can adopt it away or give it a foster family. A unwanted child isn't lesser worth than a wanted child. They are both humans.

[myTake Owner]

@curiousnorway something with no brain cells is not a human being. You're so concerned with the life of the potential child, but I notice you didn't say a word about the potential mother. Not one word about her lack of choice, the trauma she may be experiencing, how her life is affected by a pregnancy forced on her, the stigma around that pregnancy especially if she is young and pregnant in school (many public schools will not allow pregnant girls to attend their schools, but send them off to alternative schools with a lot of juvenile delinquent students), not to mention, what if her family disowns her or doesn't believe it was rape/incest which happens a lot? Adoption doesn't solve the problems nor guarantee a good life for that child. Many kids, especially minority children remain in the system until they are 18, and many more turn to crime.

[Vesuvius87]

@curiousnorway I shouldn't be forced go through even more pain (both emotional from what happened to me and physically from being a painful birth by force and even risking my health when going through all that) and get reminded how it happened. That overall shows your lack of concern for a traumatized victim and that you ruled by absolutes without making an exception to the rule. I disagre with you. I will not give birth to a product of a rape.

[curiousnorway]

The world isn't all about the mother's life. It's important to care about a innocent life too. If you really don't want children, you can either adopt it away or give them a foster family. :) It's not the child's fault if the mother got raped and therefor it's unnecessary to kill them in my opinion.

[Vesuvius87]

@curiousnorway Off course I want my own child. I would be willing to give birth and even risk my health but definitely not if it was done by force. Sorry but I'm not giving birth to rape.

[curiousnorway]

Because a child who has a father as a rapist is lesser worth?

[sugar95]

I am definitely against abortion, but I'm undecided when it comes to rape, because that's a whole other story. I can't imagine how disgusted a mother must feel to have to have a baby with some psycho she unwillingly got pregnant with... So sad. :( If the person simply made a mistake or irresponsibly had a child with someone though, I personally think they have a responsibility to raise it or put it up for adoption - in such cases abortion should not be an option.

[Sara413]

How do you propose we enforce that? What do you think will happen to the number of false rape claims if that rule was implemented? What about women who weren't "raped", but who are fleeing an abusive relationship from which they became pregnant? What about the women who simply cannot afford to have a child? What about the girls who were mislead about their bf's intentions and are now being ignored by the guy who said he loved her and now wants nothing to do with her? What about the girls who's parents might actually kill them if they found out? What about the women who's birth control failed them?

[sugar95]

@Sara413 All of those are very different situations. Abusive relationship: they should keep the child or put it up for adoption. It's not like the guy was a stranger. Woman can't afford child: put it up for adoption. Ex boyfriend: keep or put up for adoption. Afraid of parents' reaction: keep or put up for adoption. Birth control failed: again, keep and take responsiblilty or put up for adoption. Abortion should not be an option unless absolutely necessary, like it's putting the mother in danger or something. As for enforcing all of this, I don't know. I guess we just have to start by raising more awareness. We have to start somewhere. It's absolutely disgusting that people take abortion lightly.

[sugar95]

As for rape, like I wrote, I'm undecided on that.

[Sara413]

So you admit you have no idea how to enforce it. No one is taking it lightly. Like any medical procedure, it's not something people just dick around with. It's a big decision. And given the fact that there are countless scenarios that people are making this choice it, it is simply not feasible to implement different rules for different circumstances. It either has to be outlawed completely, or it needs to be an accessible choice that we trust women to make. Personally, I believe that individual women are in the best position to make choices relating to their health and reproductive status. We cannot legislate according to circumstance. That just doesn't work.

[Sara413]

Given how unfeasible it is to legislate according to circumstance, the choice is between not allowing anyone, including rape victims, abuse victims, incest victims, and women who's life and health are at risk, to access abortion, or allowing all women to access abortion and leave the choice up to them in consultation with their Dr.

[sugar95]

@Sara413 Depending on the situation, abortion isn't always morally right - some would say it never is morally right. But you're right that it's ultimately up to the mother because it is her body and her child. It's just that abortion isn't something that should be encouraged - it should be the last of all choices and it shouldn't be easily accessible, because if it were, with rape, incest and abuse aside for now, people would become more irresponsible when having sex. Abortion shouldn't be treated as lightly as going out to buy a condom. Just because a fetus is not exactly a person doesn't mean we should encourage women to easily produce and eliminate.

[sugar95]

We can't force women to make certain choices, but we definitely should not ENCOURAGE abortion. As for rape and abuse victims, it really is up to the mother, but we should teach women to always think carefully before making such a decision because it really shouldn't be as simple as saying "no, I had this child with some creep. I don't want it." "ok, we'll get rid of it for you." I understand that it's hard to accept a child when you didn't have it with someone you love/intentionally, but after getting pregnant it's not just about the woman, it's also about the child - even if it's just a fetus.

[Sara413]

I'm glad we can agree it needs to be a woman's choice. I don't think anyone "encourages" abortion nor do I believe that making it accessible leads to people taking it lightly and being irresponsible. On the contrary, respecting abortion as a valid option is part of the same comprehensive strategy that encourages sex ed and making informed choices. I can't see any person who's educated on the choices available to them choosing abortion over birth control. That's just silly.

[sugar95]

@Sara413 Maybe abortion could be more accessible - at hospitals, but they sell abortion pills at the drug store nowadays - now that is absurd to me. If abortion were any more accessible, I really think people will take unprotected sex too lightly. I mean, teenagers do stupid things sometimes. Abortion should only be accessible in-clinic and it should be cheap for young mothers who are financially unstable. It shouldn't be anymore accessible than that.

[Sara413]

They don't sell abortion pills at the drug store... Medical abortions (the ones that are done by using a combination of pills to cause a miscarriage) are conducted at a clinic or at home but can only be provided by a medical doctor... you can't just walk into a clinic and get "abortion pills". Perhaps you are thinking of the morning after pill / plan b? That's not an abortion. It's just a high dosage contraceptive that prevents a pregnancy from taking hold.

[sugar95]

@Sara413 I must be mistaken then. But, if that's how accessible it already is, then it shouldn't be anymore accessible.

[sugar95]

@Sara413 Yeah, I was thinking of the Plan b pill. my bad.

[sugar95]

Whether the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest or otherwise, at the end of the day, the woman is still pregnant with a (potential) child/human. So, I personally think abortion should be the last option and could maybe be cheaper but not anymore accessible than it already is. That's just my opinion.

[Sara413]

The problem is that accessibility is not equal across the country, both in the US and in Canada. At least here in Canada, it's an issue that's largely been put away, but in the US there are a lot of politicians who are trying to regress on abortion and make it less accessible and even illegal, and that's problematic. They're doing everything they can to shut down Planned Parenthood, which provides a lot more than just abortion care to many underprivileged women. It's scary. I'm glad that's not an issue where I live, but we do have accessibility issues, largely due to our geographical population distribution, where women living in rural areas often have to travel several hours to a major city in order to obtain care. The abortion pill wasn't available here until earlier this year and the govt is still sorting out how to best make use of that option. As it stands now, it can only be distributed by a clinic that specializes in abortion care, which means it doesn't help solve the

[Sara413]

Accessibility issue at all. People are lobbying for it to be available from any doctor, which will make a huge difference.

[sugar95]

@Sara413 Yes, it should be available from any doctor.

[Sara413]

I can't believe we just had a mature and productive discussion about abortion on gag... lol

[sugar95]

@Sara413 I don't know where else people can really have the converstations we have on gag. That's why I like this site. Most of what we discuss on here isn't discussed in everyday life. Usually people just keep to themselves unless they're asked a particular question.

[myTake Owner]

Good talk :) I was just reading through and wanting to respond, but it all sort of ended where my thoughts generally are. Of course I feel rape/incest are valid reasons for an abortion, but I also believe in a woman's choice as well as the person, outside of rape/incest, that she slept with having a voice, but ultimately the final decision belonging to the potential mother because it is her body. Men have the luxury to say whatever they'd like in these cases because they will not be affected until after the birth. Women do not. Even though I am very much pro-choice, I don't go around encouraging women to get abortions. I encourage contraceptive use and safe sex practices because that should always be step one if one has no desire to get pregnant, but mistakes happen, condoms break, contraception fails, and people should not use a baby has a punishment against these things.

[myTake Owner]

Adoption isn't always a winning solution either because there is this notion that giving a child up for adoption solves everything when there are millions of kids in adoption agencies that never get adopted or end up floating around foster care systems. Plus adoptions aren't easy on a mother either. Many never stop thinking about or dealing with the fact that htey have a child somewhere out there. It's not just this easy one stop solution. The problems are very very complicated and should not be decided by just religion, or parent groups, or a government in one fell swoop based on personal opinions of what should be done, because ultimately no one is involved in that life other than the mom and the dad.

[Sara413]

We're pretty much on exactly the same page, it turns out.

[ObscuredBeyond]

The single biggest problem with abortion laws, is that we haven't 100% abolished this wicked act with any of these laws. The number of times botched abortions lead to last-minute transfers to hospitals - that fail to save the mother's life - is so the mill isn't caught with the victim they messed up on dying inside the actual house of horrors itself. All to keep the money train going so the DNC can launder money through it!

I say we bulldoze Moloch back to the Bronze Age, and make sure he stays there! Child sacrifice has no place in a truly civilized world. None whatsoever.

[myTake Owner]

What do you say to that 13 year old that is raped or the victim of incest and is pregnant because of that? Do you think she is fit to raise a child, or endure the risks of bringing a child into this world if her body isn't ready yet so that you can stand there and say abortion is wrong, especially as a man who will never have to endure getting pregnant after a rape or case of incest? It was also shown that with complete bans on abortions, women were going to extremes to rid themselves of babies, leading to much more of a loss of life than medically sanctioned abortions, which actually is one of the main reasons we do have abortions back into law in many cases.

[Sara413]

Better adjust that tinfoil bud...

[ObscuredBeyond]

I say that the grandmother has a responsibility to step up to. And that there is a very long adoption line if all else fails. And if you want blood to be spilled because a teen is pregnant, let it be the father's. He is the one who did what deserves death, NOT the unborn child! Incest does not make the child less human; it makes the PARENTS into bad human beings! We need to end this barbaric custom of killing children for the sins of their parents. ONLY GOD can judge us for what our ancestors do/have done! And even with "legal" infanticide in place, women STILL go to extremes to perform it on themselves anyway - to AVOID HAVING TO PAY FOR IT! (Or to avoid anyone finding out they went to a mill.) I'm reminded of the 11-year-old rape victim in Chile who refused to abort. Pro-abort thugs were flying into the country, just to tell her she was "too stupid" to know what she "should want!" It was never about choice. It's about blood sacrifice. Exchange theology.

[somebodysaycheese]

Girl how many people get raped and get abortions in the US because of it? And how does being raped make it ok to murder the baby human growing in you?

Please do your research on children from rapes. Their mothers end up loving them and the kids are always grateful their mom didn't abort them.
Yea, rape laws should be harsher but they aren't unfortunately.

[myTake Owner]

How would you or I actually know that number because due to the the often re-victimization of victims and poor rape laws against both male AND female victims by courts, media, bullying, the number of rapes and pregnancies as a result of those rapes is under reported. You cannot speak for all the rape/incest victims which lead to pregnancy as if all of them just come out of the situation just fine and their kids are just fine, because you are not there in their lives nor do you have to deal with actually being the child of rape, and even if you are, you can only speak for yourself. We're not talking about kids who just had sex one drunk night. We're talking about a dad raping his daughter, a sister being forced to have sex against her will. They should be allowed choice, for once, in their situation as to what they want to do. It is not their fault that that baby came into being against their will, and you have no business trying to dictate what someone else can do with their body.

[somebodysaycheese]

BUt you are speaking on their behalf. You assuming that pregnancy from rape exists in the US. You made a take about it. Realize in order for it to be from rape a rape kit had to have been done before hand. Otherwise its you making the claim you where raped.

[myTake Owner]

Am I reading that right? You believe rape simply doesn't exist unless a rape kit is done? Wow...

[Splintercell]

First I agree with you and the number of women who enter abortion clinics who were raped is.01%

[somebodysaycheese]

Your logic is as bad as your reading skills. Honey , you make no sense

[Spermdumster666]

Sorry but 98% of abortions aren't due to incest or rape but because someone wasn't smart enough to use contraception.

[Sara413]

So, what? Do you support abortion for the few who are the result of rape, but not for anyone else? How do you propose we enforce that? What do you think will happen to the number of false rape claims if that rule was implemented? What about women who weren't "raped", but who are fleeing an abusive relationship from which they became pregnant? What about the women who simply cannot afford to have a child? What about the girls who were mislead about their bf's intentions and are now being ignored by the guy who said he loved her and now wants nothing to do with her? What about the girls who's parents might actually kill them if they found out? What about the women who's birth control failed them?

[Spermdumster666]

@Sara413 yeah like I said 98% of abortions are done because someone wasn't smart enough to realise that pregnancy is a natural result of sex and didn't use contraception your grasping at straws. Abortion is unnecessary, all thats needed is better sex education and free contraception ie the morning after pill.

[Sara413]

98% you say? Lol Where exactly did you get that stat? I'm guessing right out of your ass.

[Sara413]

I think you're seriously underestimating how often it is a matter of birth control failing.

[Spermdumster666]

@Sara413 considering anyone taking birth control isn't fertile until a year after

[Sara413]

Where on earth are you getting your information?

[Spermdumster666]

@Sara413 the NHS

[Sara413]

Most birth control methods do not impact your fertility once you go off them. It can take a month or so for the hormones to balance back out but that's about it.

[Library]

I can't understand pro-life people. Everyone should mind their business and let people have their abortions.

[ObscuredBeyond]

And what of women who drown their already-born children in the lake because they cease to be convenient? How much and from which direction someone exits / has exited the womb now means that the First Amendment is rendered null and void? What superstition is this? Moreover, what do you think will happen to Social Security, if the future pay-inners are all aborted? Murdering one child murders countless opportunities for thousands. Abortion affects everyone. It is pro-death types I can't understand. Your selfishness and bloodlust are beyond reason.

[Unit1]

I agree with you, @Library

[efefefefef]

"I can't understand pro-life people. Everyone should mind their business and let people have their abortions." yes then lets men rape women. Everyone should mind their business and let people rape. SARCASM

[BaileyisDarcy]

@efefefefef there's a fucking difference and you know it

[efefefefef]

@BaileyisDarcy the difference is rape victims have a voice and can get support

[BaileyisDarcy]

@efefefefef Who does abortion hurt? NOBODY. Who does rape hurt? Not only the victim but everyone who cares for the victim too. Thats the difference. If you dont like abortions then dont get one. Dont tell me that if i got pregnant and knew i couldnt afford a pregnancy or even just the cost of giving birth in itself, that i can't do whats better and just remove the pregnancy all together. Because what a woman does with HER body is HER business. That baby? Is not a baby, its a fetus. You know what a fetus is? A parasite whos mother is its host. Why do you think we aren't able to replicate the conditions of the womb yet? Why do you think some women miscarry every pregnancy (or at least most) they have? Why do you think we get morning sickness in the first place? Because our bodies dont recognise that fetus as a baby. It is a foreign object and our bodies do what they can to get rid of it.

[BaileyisDarcy]

@efefefefef Hey you want to tell my uterus that? Or my mum or my dad? Or anyone else who might believe you? Oh wait none of them will. Hah!

[efefefefef]

@BaileyisDarcy your parents must be like you

[Library]

@Unit1 thanks

[ThunderButt83]

i agree with you, its your life and body, and what happens good or bad should be up to you, not by some law invented by some idiot to determine it.

[beautifulangel76]

The majority of abortions aren't even based off rape or incest it's mostly people who don't want a child. I believe that the only way a woman should be able to legally have an abortion is her life or the child's life is threatened and if the woman is pregnant because of rape or incest.

[Sara413]

How do you propose we enforce that? What do you think will happen to the number of false rape claims if that rule was implemented? What about women who weren't "raped", but who are fleeing an abusive relationship from which they became pregnant? What about the women who simply cannot afford to have a child? What about the girls who were mislead about their bf's intentions and are now being ignored by the guy who said he loved her and now wants nothing to do with her? What about the girls who's parents might actually kill them if they found out? What about the women who's birth control failed them?

[beautifulangel76]

@Sara413 Birt control is pretty effective especially if you use more than one method. There's really no excuse. If you aren't in any position to have a baby then you don't need to be having sex.

[Sara413]

Haha wow ok... so I should never ever get to have sex with my long term domestic partner because we don't want to have children? That's ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous!

[beautifulangel76]

@Sara413 If you don't want kids then you should take responsibility and use multiple methods to prevent it from happening. An innocent child shouldn't have to die because you simply don't want kids.

[Sara413]

Or maybe you should accept that there is a big difference between a bundle of cells and a human being. No "child" is "suffering" because of abortion. A potential life just isn't being brought to term.

[beautifulangel76]

@Sara413 That is the most ignorant comment I've ever seen. By the time you find out you're pregnant it's not a bundle of cells. The baby has a body with functioning organs. You should really do your research before getting into a debate on this topic.

[JohnDoe3000]

... but Jesus wants 12 year old girls to raise their rape/babies or die (and usually the fetus dies with them) from the complications of a dangerous pregnancy...

[jacquesvol]

Jesus' mom too was only 13. Impregnated by... by who?

[rjroy3]

The deeper question is, "when is it ok to end a life?".

[efefefefef]

NEVER

[rjroy3]

@efefefefef daaaamn.

[Saoirse_Nua]

So all those Republican Conservatives who rant and rave about Islam wanting to control women and make them do things they don't want, where are they now?
philadams.co/.../tumbleweed.jpg

[MissMillionDollarMan]

factually inaccurate from the start. try again.

[Anpu23]

I agree that in situations of incest and rape that a woman (or a man) should have the right to abort (financial in the case of a man). It's inherently unfair for a person to be forced to have a child that they had no say in it's creation. The counter argument is that the child is itself innocent, and had nothing to do with the rape, and punishing/killing the child is wrong... (It's important to understand the mentality of those who you argue against).

It's painful to me that we're getting back to "every time a person has sex, they consent to parenthood, even if they did not consent to the sex" This is the wrong direction

[Phoenix98]

Actually I do because the sanctity of life is something that goes beyond me or you and rarely any of the abortions are a result of incest or rape maybe like 1% of them.

Murdering a child is not ok, under any circumstances, period, end of discussion.

[sedrftvgyhujik]

Im sorry there have to be so many stupid religious nut jobs ruining peoples lives.
Could you have it done in another state where it is legal?

[sedrftvgyhujik]

This is immature of me but i don't care because it should be pointed out when pepole sink to blocking you purely to have the last word. "RationalMale" just blocked me after i made one i think humorous comment that didn't agree with his sexist religious views just so he could get the last word. Whats wrong with monty python that on its own warrants being blocked?

[jacquesvol]

@sedrftvgyhujik @RationalMale blocked many people who disagree with him.

[sedrftvgyhujik]

@jacquesvol how did he become an editor if he's censoring everyone?

[jacquesvol]

@sedrftvgyhujik Those are the mysteries of Gag...

[sedrftvgyhujik]

@jacquesvol Bribery?

[jacquesvol]

@sedrftvgyhujik I said a mystery

[singlebee]

I think EXCEPT for women who have gone through rape, incest or who have any kind of life threat because of the pregnancy, every other women who goes for abortion should be convicted for sure...

[Sara413]

I bet you're also one of those guys who thinks false rape accusations are a massive problem, too... what do you think is going to happen to the number of false rape accusations if we make a law saying women who've been raped can have abortions but no one else can?

[singlebee]

@Sara413 ok hell any one can have abortion!! Happy now? And by the way I was talking not about people who just sleep around carelessly spreading diseases... And I ask you a direct question.. Do you think false rape accusations are a good thing? Are you afraid that if there is any law against it you won't be able to false accuse anyone? What's your problem if I think false rape accusations are a problem? They can destroy any innocent man's life so yup they are a problem

[Sara413]

No, false rape accusations are not a good thing. they're a terrible thing. They not only hurt the person being accused, but they also make it more difficult for real victims to gain justice. They are, however, incredibly rare and are not the massive, widespread issue that many anti-feminists make them out to be. Also, in most jurisdictions there already is a law against filing a false report to police. There is also a great deal of civil law precedent for obtaining recompense for slander, in cases where a criminal report isn't filed, but rumours and other malicious attacks take place.

[Sara413]

My point here being that false accusations are rare... however, if we were to implement a law that criminalizes or restricts access to abortion, for all women expect those who become pregnant by rape, we can reasonably expect that false accusations will increase significantly. When abortion was illegal, women didn't stop having them, they just had them in unregulated and dangerous illegal places. If abortion is illegal except in certain circumstances, you can bet your ass people will claim those circumstances in order to access a safe and legal abortion.

[singlebee]

@Sara413 well yeaa you are right... we shouldn't criminalize abortion... Hmmm

[Kuraj]

This topic is pointless to discuss about, abortion should be a right available to anybody without conditions and places opposing that idea are degenerated redneck counties that are not worth to live in.

[00Lelouchxx]

But if its consensual men should have a say. Yes or no. If its a no and ayes. The men shpuld have the option to leave the child with no childs support

[jacquesvol]

Only if the mother agrees with that.

[00Lelouchxx]

@jacquesvol im saying if you dont want it and she does then u shouldn't have to raise it.

[jacquesvol]

You're still responsible for her pregnancy and -since you cannot force her to abort- for the child. No way to get out of that. You want to prevent it? Either use condoms or have a vasectomy.

[Jager66]

@jacquesvol lol that's retarded... Hold women to the same standard then hypocrite.

[jacquesvol]

@Jager66
https://i.imgur.com/isG3Ohn.jpg

[Jager66]

@jacquesvol uh.. ok. It's not an insult if it's true though so that meme makes zero sense. Hypocrite is going to Hypocrite www.funnymemes.net/.../still-a-hypocrite.jpeg

[00Lelouchxx]

@jacquesvol at the end of ths day its 40% mens responsibility and 60 percent theirs.

[Yamil]

We live in a really fucked up society if women actually believe that reasons such as not wanting a kid, not having a lot of money, wanting to put their career first, or deciding they already have enough kids are all good excuses for killing an unborn childI will state that I do believe there are exceptions. I personally wouldn’t expect a woman to keep a child if her life were in danger. I also don’t believe that rape victims should be forced to give birth since being raped is obviously never a woman's fault and causes such emotional damage that it could potentially end up destroying her life. However, all other reasons are total bullshit. And I’m sick to death of women trying to justify their abortions and defending themselves by saying, “I don’t owe anyone an explanation! Nobody has the right to judge me! I have no regrets!” Yeah…whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night. An abortion was an easy out for you; a quick fix to get out of a bind because you didn’t want to own up to your responsibilities. A pregnancy is not a little oopsie. You fucked up big time. So accept the consequences and man up (or in this case, woman up). Now if you don’t want to be a mom, nobody is saying you have to. Give the baby up for adoption. Nobody really wants an asshole like you to have a kid anyway because thoughtless, irresponsible people shouldn't be parents. But please don’t be idiotic enough to actually believe that killing a baby is the best option to get out of parenthood after you acted recklessly and childishly. What’s your argument against adoption? Oh, you don’t want to carry the baby? Too much work and stress? Well, maybe you should’ve thought of that while the guy you were banging was attempting the pull out method. Our society has made abortion so acceptable and normalized that women don’t even hesitate to get one as soon as they find out they’re pregnant. They act as if they're going to the mall to return a pair of shoes that don't fit. This country makes shit too easy for people who don’t deserve it, and it’s fucking pathetic. Planned Parenthood already gives women a million affordable options to prevent pregnancy. STOP MAKING EXCUSES!!!

[Adigelunar]

++++Good post

[Splintercell]

I understand where you're coming from. But I still disagree. Abortion is 100% wrong. Adoption is better. Yes the foster care system is messed up, then you step up call your elected representatives and insist they fix it, you get involved in fixing the problem. Out of the many women that do get an abortion only.01% are rape victims.
Yes it's horrible for women to have to go through that and live with that. However don't punish the innocent baby for the crime of the male. By taking the babies life, certainly not.
For your last paragraph someone is already telling you what to do though health care it's called the government.

[myTake Owner]

that's really easy to say when you know it can never happen to you. I think the fact that a lot of pro-life people go so far as to say in cases of rape or incest... we shouldn't punish the child... but what about the actual woman or girl who has been raped? Where is the outrage there for what she has been through? Where is her choice in the matter? No one should be forced to do something like raise an entire human being for the rest of their lives simply to satisfy some stranger's viewpoint on what they should do with their own body. You would tell that 12 year old rape or incest victim to their face, that for your benefit, she should have that child despite the fact she may not physically be ready to have a child, want that child, is too young to raise that child, and it may kill her? You ready to tell your own daughter that if it happened to her?

[Sara413]

I hate when people say shit like "we'll just have an adoption", like being pregnant for nine months and giving birth are so fucking easy. Can you imagine walking around your Jr high or high school fucking pregnant? All the rumours... especially if your rapist is a classmate... teen rape victims have a hard enough time an put up with way too much social ostracized in the first place... mixing a pregnancy in there only makes it ten times worse. Oh, and then once the kid is up for adoption, there's a significant chance it'll end up in the foster system. Adoption isn't the right choice for a lot of people for a lot of reasons. Let women and girls make the choices that are right for them.

[Splintercell]

@Sara413 okay to both of you. I never said rape was good, it's evil! How about convicting the guy or classmate. Yes there are many problems in this world and rape is one of them. But neither of you have said any solutions. Locking the guy up is a temporary bandage to the real problem. The real problem is the heart of mankind. The heart is desperately wicked who can know it. I do understand, my mom was molested by her moms boyfriend at age 13. I know you are frustrated but using that language to respond back isn't necessary. I don't believe in promoting murder through abortion. I'm only saying where I stand, and I"m not saying it's easy for a young girl or woman. To the contrary I sympathize for her. By the way most women that get abortions regret getting that abortion for the rest of their life, and they have an 80% higher chance to get breast cancer. These are the articles I have read from women who get abortions.

[Sara413]

Who the fuck said you said rape was good? We're just saying rape victims go through more than enough without adding an unwanted pregnancy into the mix.

[Splintercell]

@Sara413 again the language. There are 250,000 words in the English language and you rather cuss.

[Sara413]

Can't make a valid argument so you have to lecture me about cussing instead?

[Splintercell]

@Sara413 I have made my argument. However a man convinced against his will is if the same opinion still. I believe in life and preserving life. You hold a different view. Due to this subject, which is difficult. I choose to stand where I do. Life and protecting it. But you haven't given a solution either. Your answer to rape is abortion, yet there is more to answer. Like what to do with the male that committed such an evil thing. Simply putting the male in jail or prison will do so much, it still doesn't change his heart to a repentant heart that changes him. So again what do you suggest?

[Sara413]

The topic of this conversation is abortion, particularly as it relates to sexual abuse. We aren't here to discuss rape sentencing. That's an important issue, but not the one we are talking about here. As relates to the topic at hand, I did give my solution. It is to ensure that abortion care is accessible to all women and girls who need it. A comprehensive education strategy should go along with that, so that people know what their options are before they become sexually active, or before they are assaulted.

[Splintercell]

@Sara413 okay point taken, but it's still a domino effect. I also looked up the statistics about rape cases and we do have a brobdignagan kind of problem in this country. I respect you view.

[Touchmehxx]

I'm not saying I'm for or against abortion but what pisses me off is how can a mother kill her baby or the mother should love blah blah. You can't force someone to be a mother, yes they can give birth but it doesn't make them a mother if that makes sense. You can't force the connection

[bobbyxx]

Abortion is the most repugnant act on the planet.

[HookedOnSalt]

I think it's retarded to be so against ending a tiny fetus and instead have a girl raise an unwanted baby. There's a timespan for when it's acceptable and when it's not and it is a grey area. Obviously I'd be against ripping out a 6 month old fetus.

"the minute you start thinking you're entitled to decide for someone else what they can and can't do with their bodies, where does that end exactly? How much are you personally willing to standby and let someone make choices about your health and your body and your rights even if you disagree with them completely?" While I'm pro-abortion, this makes no sense because another life is involved. You make it sound like you're getting breast implants or something.

[Derpdeder]

Well if you can kill babies where does that end exactly?

[myTake Owner]

a group of cells with no functional brain activity, thoughts, or feelings, is not a baby. If you want to make that claim, then I should prosecute you ever time you jack off and your sperm dies. Those are potential babies too, by your logic, right?

[Derpdeder]

So late term abortion is bad?

[Anonymous]

The "pro lifers" are just pro birthers or pro pregnancy as I call it. None of them would ever adopt any of the unwanted children but they have no problem harrassing women who have or want abortions. I say men need to stay the hell out of it cause they will never have the chance to be pregnant and go through the nine months of hell that a woman goes through. Dont like abortion? Dont have one and keep your mouth shut about those who do. Unless you want to adopt many unwanted children SHUT THE HELL UP!!! I have said the same thing, how can anyone say to a kid or anyone "you have to keep this baby that wasn't your choice to even have" also try saying to a product of rape or incest, "your dad is also your grandpa he raped me" yeah no one would do it. So shut up everyone about abortion, it is not your life. Mind your own business.

[Anonymous]

Women will keep aborting and doctors will keep performing them legally/illegaly and there is NOTHING anyone can do- law of supply and demand.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, but abortion is still wrong. You are killing an innocent child inside you who has done nothing wrong.
Well done on your take, tho. 👏

[bobbyxx]

Well done. I have often found generation are the best. Especially on subjects like this.

[Anonymous]

2 points. Im undecided on how I feel about abortions but here is 2 things I picked up on in your argument:

1) are babies born of rape or incest inherently worse than those that arent?
2) government policy should be written for the majority, not the exception. All government policy has situations where it doesn't produce the best outcomes. But if overall the benefits outweigh the costs its still a beneficial policy. How many abortions are done due to rape or incest?

[Anonymous]

Every woman as the right to terminate a beginning pregnancy. That's it.

[Anonymous]

You are right, every woman has a right to abort in a case of incest or rape, or if the pregnancy is risk for health, or if it happened because of inefficient contraception (e. g ruptured condom) - especially in situation when a family can't afford to have another child. People should know one important fact: Embryo/Fetus is still not a formed baby, it's just a bunch of cells, without consciousness and cognitive abilities. It's immoral to end pregnancy before the 4th month. Luckily, I'm an atheist, so I don't believe in religious mumbo jumbo.

[jacquesvol]

Every woman has a right to abort. Full stop.

[Opinion Owner]

@jacquesvol I agree 100%.

[Anonymous]

people think givig birth is punishment for women who had unprotected sex. Then what's the punishment for guys?

[sedrftvgyhujik]

They are idiots if they think that.
The logical next step from anti abortion is this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk
if they lived by this they would all have massive fees to keep it all on ice.

[Sara413]

There isn't one. No one cares if guys have sex...

[bobbyxx]

Women get away with their fair share of crimes, wrongs. Men are often punished for crimes that women aren't.

[myTake Owner]

@bobbyxx Considering I'm talking about rape and incest here... let's be clear... a lot of men get away with rape and incest. We have terrible rape laws all over the world, with some places not even recognizing rape as being punishable by law. So you're "argument" about women getting away with things that men don't, as if to say, it's way worse, it a moot point.

[bobbyxx]

So what if they do, women are legally allowed to get away with crime that men are punished for.

[Anonymous]

There is only one category of people who oppose abortion.

People who believe it's murder.

I do not believe abortion in the first four months is murder. But most of your arguments basically say 'it's fine for you to be against infanticide, but you don't get to decide that for other people'

If you want to change minds you need to argue why it's not infanticide

[myTake Owner]

... and I still believe that. You are welcome to be a person who is raped and decide for yourself that you are pro-life and no matter what, you want to raise that child in the same way someone else, may decide from themselves that they do not want to raise a child that they did have a choice in creating in the first place. Pro-choice for me, means you have a choice what you, and ultimately your partner if you have one, do with your lives, your bodies. My only problem is when someone tries to decide for someone else a very personal and private matter.

[myTake Owner]

*didn't

[Opinion Owner]

So you think people should be free to decide what they think murder and infanticide are or are not? Should parents have the right to kill their children if they decide they don't want them?

[jacquesvol]

Anonymous (36-45) For some religious people, it's infanticide from the moment sperm reaches an ovum.

[Opinion Owner]

@jacquesvol Yes, obviously. I disagree with that view, and have reasons why. But unless you persuade them that it is NOT infanticide, they are not likely to find very many of the other 'arguments' compelling. It really doesn't matter how much it disrupts someone's life to have an unplanned or undesired pregnancy, they are not going to condone murdering children. So all arguments not addressing that are essentially pointless... they simply are ways for people who are already pro-choice to agree with each other in an echo chamber.

[jacquesvol]

Since the probability of sperm reaching an ovum exists from the moment an not condomed penis enters a vagina which isn't on BC, BC should be allowed for everyone. But try to persuade the girls' parents... Success.

[Opinion Owner]

@jacquesvol If you are suggesting that making birth control widely available is an effective way of reducing abortions, I fully agree.

[jacquesvol]

By facilitating access to BC, Planned Parenthood avoids much more abortions than it has to do abortions to help girls who are in in trouble. Pro Lifers should be thanking Planned Parenthood instead of fighting it.

[Anonymous]

I think there are to many women use abortion as a birth control. They wouldn't be in that situation if they were more responsible.

[JiminsHoe]

Not necessarily. Condoms often break or leak and yes, people have sex! Great! What are you going to do about it? You can't say to people who are unfit to have children "Well, don't have sex then" Because sex is intimate and wonderful, but some people just aren't ready for having kids. And yes, women do get abortions due to rape but many of them get abortions because they are too young or they do not have enough money to raise the child.

[Opinion Owner]

@JiminsHoe You know and I know that there are women out there that have children just because they are to irresponsible to get on the pill or make their partners wear a condom. And yes condoms break... but very few do. People just dont care anymore. They say oh well I will get the government to pay for it.

[Sara413]

Very few women use abortion as birth control... why the hell would anyone actually choose an invasive procedure over a pill or implant? Lol Abortion is a last resort.

[Opinion Owner]

@Sara413 Because of the time of sex they dont care. That is the reason there are so unwanted pregnancies.