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My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

Being pro-animal rights as a meat-eater and bad arguments used to attack the vegetarian and vegan community

It's not really a secret that I love animals. In my life I've had two beautiful dogs and I see animals as sentient creatures that can feel pain and emotion the same way that we can. I even went vegetarian for a short period, although it did not last that long a period of time and I could have found better alternatives to the influx of Margarita pizzas, cheese crackers, biscuits, chocolate and meagerly compensating all this junk with my intake of five fruit and vegetables during that two month time period. Nevertheless, I did "try".

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

I'm not here to moralise then, or tell meat-eaters that they're bad people or whatever (I hold governments, media and commercial industry a hundred thousands times more accountable than the individual consumer who has basically no influence, by the way). What I am going to do is ask people to try and see the other point of view, and debunk some of the common arguments against veganism and vegetarianism. In case you didn't know (and some people I have spoken with do not), vegetarians can still consume dairy products (milk, cheese and eggs) whereas a true vegan will not consume any animal products whatsoever.

#1 Vegans & vegetarians should stop being so "butthurt". They can live their life, so just let me live mine.

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

Wouldn't you be "butthurt" if the majority of the world did something you had strong ethical convictions against? I'm not going to make the comparison here between animals being slaughtered and humans being killed because animals do not have the same sense of purpose or meaning in their life that a human being can create because of the power of their mind. That means that while an animal can feel pain and suffer a great deal, you are not stripping it of the full potential or robbing the creative ambition that a human would have.

But to say, I should be able to live my life how I want is not a strong argument for meat-eating. If we let people do whatever the heck they wanted whenever they wanted, we would not be a very civilised culture, now would we? We have laws in place precisely because we don't want people doing whatever the heck they want all the time. If people were allowed to do whatever the heck they want, they could burn toxic waste in their backyard, get a taxi somewhere and run off without paying, bottle someone round the head in a bar with no lawsuit, keep the neighbours awake all night with loud music, and just be obnoxious douchebags in general. And all of that's assuming, we still have some basic laws in place to prevent murder and really horrendous acts of cruelty. Things could obviously be a million times worse than that still.

However, the laws we have in place to protect animals, are relatively slim, and some of these described heinous activities really do happen on a very regular basis to millions of animals worldwide, often for very little reason. I can understand that we need to experiment on animals for human medicine related reasons - it's a necessity for our survival. However, we do not need L'Oreal to test more freaking shampoo products by burning out rabbit eyes. We've got hundreds of thousands of cosmetic and shampoo products that we know are safe (relatively safe, I mean there's a lot of unnecessary chemicals in these things, not to mention the environmental damage they cause) but we keep on letting commercial industry test this stuff on more animals for no reason.

#2 We've been eating meat for hundreds of years, it's just nature

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

I don't know where to start with the multitude of things wrong with this one. Anybody with any basic knowledge of logical fallacies (and everybody should at least know what the basic logical fallacies are, by the way) knows that this is both an appeal to nature and an appeal to antiquity. Basically, the person is assuming that,

(a) something's natural must be justified / healthy / pragmatic just because it's natural

(b) something that we've always done must be justified / healthy / pragmatic just because we've always done it

So why is that person wrong then? Well, first of all not everything natural is good for us or ethical. Mould is natural, so is poison ivy, but we don't eat those things. Similarly, hurling balls of turd at male competitors is a "natural" way of securing female mates, but you don't see this as a common practice any more. And now look at all of the stuff in the modern world that is NOT natural: medicines, agriculture, technology, cosmetics. Yet all of that stuff is good for us, and some of it is very, very ethical indeed. So this is a nonsense argument.

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

As for the appeal to antiquity, it's the same basic sentiment that's being expressed. Just because something has always been done for many, many years does not make that right or common sense for that matter. To see this, we've just got to compare all the things we've done for hundreds of years that were terrible like slavery, feudalism, wars, and human trafficking then compare those things to the good things we have now, like democracy, fair trade, medicine and so forth. So again, another really terrible comparison.

#3 No such thing as ethics: we can do what we want

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

So, this point is related to #1 in a lot of ways and it's pretty tough to argue against, BUT that doesn't mean there isn't a case. The argument is basically that it can't be objectively immoral to inflict unnecessary cruelty on an animal because that's just one person's view point. I'm not going to sit here a make a meta-ethical argument for objective morality because it's really difficult, I'm sceptical of such a thing myself and it will probably go over most people's heads anyway. Besides, there's a way of refuting this argument that's one hundred times easier.

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

Again, going back to #1, humans did not create laws and social order for people to do whatever the heck they want. Why? Because they were afraid of getting beaten up, robbed, raped, murdered, enslaved, mutilated, etc., etc. Ok cool, but what does that have to do with animals - after all, it's not our problem if animals get experimented on.

True, but there is this other little problem called 'empathy'. If all most people cared about was themselves and laws were designed to only protect the self-interests of the strong and powerful, then that probably would not be enough to keep a good social order because then anybody that showed any sign of weakness whatsoever would fall straight through the non-existent social security net and the majority of us would live to serve a very small, elite minority.

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

Thank god for empathy right? See, empathy actually has a pragmatic function as well: it's not all just about wishy-washy emotions. If we just let weak people in society rot - homeless people, autistic and downs-syndrome people, people with mental health issues or mental illness, etc., etc. - if we just let them fall down the metaphorical rabbit hole, then we ourselves would not be in a good position. Think about it: any time we show weakness, any time we demonstrate a lack of utility to someone stronger or more powerful than us that only cares about themselves ... in any of those situations, nobody is going to care about us so, we're just going to get screwed over as well.

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

It's not a good situation. But fortunately for society, empathy is just as cohesive - if not a more cohesive bond - than plain old guns and greed. So, if we feel empathy (and it's genetically coded that we do feel empathy) then, most of us that are not complete psychopaths probably do feel at least a little bit of empathy towards animal suffering as well as human suffering. The more knowledgeable we become about the ethics of animal treatment, then the more we are likely to be disturbed about the way things are. So why sit back and do nothing?

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

Everything in this world is interconnected, and not only does the animal industry have severe ethical ramifications, but a lot of animal products are bad for our health and bad for the environment. To summarize my argument here, sometimes being ethical is the practical thing to do. I'd like to tell people that they should just be ethical just because, but realistically some people actually need that 'self-interest' motive to actually listen to points of views any compassionate human being would at least consider. So there you have it.

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

#4 Animals eat other animals

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

So this is another one of those arguments that has about 10 things wrong with it, and when you hear that perspective, your head feels like it's about to explode because there's too many things to say all at once and as a result you're left speechless and boiling with rage. Meanwhile, the person is smirking to themselves because they think they've made a good point.

I really can't get my head over what a dumb argument this is. I think the person that makes this argument must think that ...

(a) the meat products he buys comes from this kind of animal...

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

rather than this breed ...

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

or such a vicious predatory beast as this one:

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

(b) humans in the west are in a primitive survival mode where they don't have any option but to kill and eat raw meat, just like the lions in Africa are

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

(c) predatory animals inflict anything like the horrendous suffering and torturing that goes on in laboratories and the meat industry

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

(d) animals have the self-awareness or logical capacity to make moral judgements like humans can

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

So you see, this argument is stupid beyond belief, right? But for some reason it doesn't stop unintelligent youtubers spouting their dumb one liners in the comment section. I guess that's just the internet for you...

Conclusion

Animals are not the same as human beings: they are not moral like we are, and they do not live lives enriched with meaning and creativity like we do. Furthermore, we cannot survive in a world that does not kill animals: we need medicine and products that have been tested on animals; we do not have enough land that would support agriculture alone; and we need to destroy natural habitats and use products that indirectly kill animals as well sometimes.

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate

However, this does not justify behaviour that is unnecessarily cruel or vicious towards animals. This does not mean that animals cannot feel pain or emotions like we can. This does not mean that we cannot make a move towards using more humane, free range farming methods to minimise suffering. Vegans and vegetarians have a right to be angry about the actions of commercial industry and how to some extent, the individual consumer allows unethical behaviour by staying ignorant and making arguments such as the ones I have listed in order to justify their choices and stop themselves feeling guilty.

My Take on the Vegan vs. Meat Eater Debate
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Most Helpful Girl

  • Everyone's writing about veganism since I wrote my take lol.

    But yeah you're right, the "animals eat other animals" argument is one of the most popular arguments used against vegans. It's an appeal to nature fallacy. We used to hunt for meat but now we don't have to anymore, because we can go to the store and buy it, which supports the cruelty against those animals. Animals don't have the option to go to the store to buy their meat and some of them actually need meat in their diets. We don't and we can live without it, which is why that argument is flawed.

    Also, I am vegetarian now. Haven't eaten meat in 3 days. What I was saying in my post about vegans is how I dislike the attitudes that some of them have, and I was never against the movement in the first place. Many of the ones who commented proved my exact point and were rude and unhelpful. Other vegans agreed with me, and said that many vegans who are aggressive and rude to others give vegans a bad name.

    Many meat eaters are the same: rude, ignorant, not willing to learn about veganism. Both sides have their bad and good.

    Anyways this was a nice read. Very insightful. Thanks for sharing. Have you read my take yet?

Most Helpful Guy

  • Another great Take about vegetarian and vegan diet, I agree with your explanations about the usual conflicts with the meat eaters.

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  • Very informative, very good post!

  • This is an outright lie. And I don't know if you said because you don't care or because you don't know it's a lie.
    "we do not have enough land that would support agriculture alone; and we need to destroy natural habitats and use products that indirectly kill animals as well sometimes."

    Yes, we do. If you look to places like Brazil, rainforests are being cut down to make room for beef grazing and soybean crops. A large percentage of those soybeans are fed to livestock, not people. Too much water and food goes to animals, not people.
    WE HAVE ENOUGH FOOD ON THE PLANET TO FEED EVERY HUMAN. Every year, planet earth produces enough plant matter to feed every single person on that planet. But we don't, because a steak has more value than a human life.

    • I said it because it's shorthand for saying that there's many complexities involved in using large-scale agriculture for human consumption. For example, not all terrain is adequate for the kind of crops people typically eat (and would typically eat a lot more of). Then there is the question of pest control, also not mentioned in the original take would be destruction of natural habitats. These are two points out of many, many complications involved in limiting agriculture to just crops. Not to mention, you only picked one out of many other arguments for why it's necessary for our survival to kill animals. I don't support killing animals unless we need to do it to survive.

    • Yes, not all terrain is adequate for all crops, some land is not suitable for most crops. However, the fact is-it takes over 10 lbs of grain to make 1lb of beef, that's not a smart investment of water, space, pesticides, labor-anything. We produce enough food every year for everyone to eat, yet, people die of hunger. Also, I picked the one in which the most animals and resources are used. Do animals have to die for certain medical advancements, yea, but that's not as trivial as someone craving a steak every Friday. Also, I have no idea if you're American, but even American vegetarians get more than the needed amount of animal protein, American meat eaters get way too much. So, it's about the gluttony and our culture as well.

    • oh my god yes, thankyou, preach

  • "Animals are not the same as human beings" For all the times I have heard vegans accuse meat eaters of acting superior, it is the vegans that need to get over themselves. Humans are animals. Eating meat is a part of our biology, just like it is in every single other animal. Even plant eating animals eat meat, when the opportunity presents itself.

    So what if it hurts another animal to be killed for food, or used as a belt? Eventually we have to grow up and accept that is how the world works. If that same animal would have lived, it would have willingly hurt another animal to survive. You won't stop the pain of animals, by not killing them. The number of other predators would just go up, and at best, they would still get used as food. When it comes to the natural world, it is silly to act like ethics even play a role in the eating of animals. Humans are just animals. Humans aren't special or different just because we can choose not to use animal products. We are predators, and sometimes even prey.

    What do you think would happen to all the cows, and chickens all over the world if people stopped buying animal products? They would be killed of course. In fact if we didn't have the value we do have for those animals, then we would simply eliminate all animals that were of no use to us, because they take up too much space and resources. That is space and resources that could be used to benefit humans, and there is nothing more natural than for a human animal to take care of ourselves and our loved ones. If we did spare them somehow eventually they would still die a horrible death in nature. Animals don't die peacefully in their sleep of old age in nature.

    Just because you don't like how nature functions, doesn't mean it isn't a good reason. You need to learn to accept nature for what it is, and not for what you want it to be. Humans are just animals. The problem is you are in such an unnatural world you don't understand how humans are suppose to act, and are trying to build a moral framework around some idea that humans should strive to be something we are not meant to be.

    • Seriously, you need to read the f**n take.

    • I disagreed with the part of what you said about humans not being like animals. I also disagreed with your idea that it being natural wasn't a good excuse. Which again is pretty much the same thing you listed as number four as well. Even your prey animals like the cow, do eat meat. They just aren't built to hunt. If say a baby chick gets close by though, a cow will go out of its way to eat it. If that baby chick was 50 feet tall, it would even eat you. Animals eat animals. The fact people don't agree with you doesn't mean they haven't read it. You just aren't makes as good of points as you think you are.

    • Well that's just untrue. Obligate herbivores have no natural killer instinct as they survive solely on plants. There have been individual cases with deer eating baby chicks and herbivorous birds eating bat brains, but that's because of extreme survival situations. Untill you go out of your way to hunt down a squirrel or a rabbit and bite it's flesh off and eat it raw out of natural instincts or actually film and a cow casually eating a chicken, your "argument" that "Even your prey animals like the cow, do eat meat," will stay invalid.

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  • The majority of the new wave of Youtube Vegans are insufferable tools. It's not their fault, they are only average humans susceptible to memeplexes.

    A typical say, meat eating teen girl watches an Animal Rights documentary and follows up with videos from Durianrider, Freelee, and Vegan Gains. Suddenly, she becomes an expert philosopher and a computer chair activist.

    More importantly, everyone who disagrees or hasn't stumbled upon these particular videos is a completely idiot for not reasoning in accordance to these anti-meat regurgitations. But the truth is so obvious! Especially when you take it from someone else's mouth and play it off like you knew it all along!

    Curse these people who dont watch YouTube vegan content like you do every single day!

  • I agree.

    • Another arguments vegans don't accept is the fact biologically we are set up to be ombinovores. We have canines to rip meat off and molars to chew. I have no problem accepting others lifestyle but what annoys me is the lack of respect when the tables are turned. #BeingVeganMeansImBasicallyGodsMum

    • Lots of them say we are naturally herbivores but I learned in school what we are omnivores.

    • @RainbowFanGirl they say that... But they are wrong. If we were herbivores we wouldn't need canines and we would have more than 1 stomach (most carnivores have 1 stomach, most omnivores have multiple). I love the fact they are so blind though. I understand vegetarianism because it's trying to save animals. But vegans generally are idiots. I remember one viral Facebook post: "we keep cows pregnancy 24/7 for you to drink their milk" No you spastic. Milk comes after the baby. Or did you skip school the past 12 years?

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  • Exactly. All of this doesn't just happen on accident - people do it because they have to. It's the way we live/survive.

  • Actually, we can support the agriculture to feed the world on a purely plant based diet. What do you think farm animals eat? Plants. And like humans, animals poop out most of the calories they eat. So calories are wasted in the process. You'll always need more plant calories to produce 100 calories of animal products than to produce 100 calories of plants. Filtering calories through animals always leaves you with less calories. So, if we all ate plant based, we'd need far less land and resources than we do now.

    In the future, most people will HAVE to go plant based, out of necessity. We are simply running out of resources to produce animal products.

  • We DEFINITELY DONT, I repeat DONT need to test medicine and other products like cosmetics on animals!! It needs lots of animals of different species. There are waaay better and more reliable ways. ITS 2016!!!
    Take a look at these links:
    www.nytimes.com/.../12animal.html?_r=0

    The next ones are pictures with some facts:
    s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...2bddd01c1d.jpg

    image.slidesharecdn.com/.../...pt251113-10-638.jpg

  • You do realize that animal pro-rights means that you don't support animals being killed for their meat?

    • not at all, because 'rights' can encompass a lot of different elements.

    • Not really. One of the most basic "rights" is the right to not be killed and eaten. Your choice of wording was incorrect.

    • @koko124 keyword being 'one of'. I would argue that (a) there are PLENTY of worse things than being killed and eaten (rape, torture and mutilation come to mind) (b) animal rights people can range from being against UNNECESSARY cruelty to animals (like I am) to people that are against the meat and dairy industry in general, to people that don't even think animals should be domesticated. In short 'animal rights' is a broad spectrum (Btw, I actually used a different title to that. I can't remember what the original title was, or if it even used the words "animal rights" because it was much longer and more specific, hence why it got edited - but it was not that.)

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  • The argument that we have always eaten meat or that its in nature isn't stupid. We argue being gay is natural because acts of homosexuality exists in nature and that is the only argument we have to support homosexuality. we compare a lot of things to nature always have and always will. If vegans want to make a stand they should protest these large companies, not be hateful to anyone not vegan. They need to keep their beliefs to themsleves just like we tell the religious to keep their beleifs to themselves.

    • 'The argument that we have always eaten meat or that its in nature isn't stupid.' Yes it is. 'We argue being gay is natural ' You don't need to prove homosexuality is natural to demonstrate that it's ethical: if two consenting adults want to have intercourse, it doesn't matter if it's 'natural' or not. They are two consenting adults and are free to do as they please. '[Vegans] need to keep their beliefs to themsleves' People don't keep their beliefs to themselves, hence we have laws.

    • No, the acceptance of homosexuality would not exist if we did not compare it to what animals do. Being their is more scientific evidence disproving one being born that way. Ethical is subjective, if its preventable their is nothing unethical about it. And yea, guess we need laws for vegans to keep their beliefs to themselves. they are a cult.

    • 'the acceptance of homosexuality would not exist if we did not compare it to what animals do.' Accepting homosexuality has nothing to do with what animals do do or don't do. It's a consensual act between two adults - that's all we need to know. 'Ethical is subjective, ' I addressed this already. Seriously you need to do your research and think of better arguments, I think I'm losing brain cells just talking to you. As such, this is my last response.

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  • TOO Long to read but I do agree with #1

    I love food TOO much.. and actually would never date a vegetarian/vegan.

    ... I might not date her if she hated sea food.

    • yeah, you didn't actually read the first section, you just looked at the title and meme, amirite?

    • True... writing/reading along post gets boring so I just read the bold print. I just threw in my.02 about vegans, etc.

    • right, because I was communicating precisely the opposite point of what you seem to think I was saying.

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  • Informative post. I too am not a fan of butthurt vegans/vegetarians. You can't expect people to adopt your lifestyle. It takes time and a lot of getting used to. At the same time I believe veganism/vegetarianism is a great movement. Vegan lifestyle is eventually a healthy lifestyle with an added bonus of being kinder to animals.

  • My argument, which isn't really an argument, is that I simply like meat. It's tasty.

    • 'I simply like meat. It's tasty.' True, I'm about to have a roast dinner. Having said that, we buy a lot of free range meat so I don't feel that guilty.

  • Very nice mytake, I like all the points.

  • *goes and eats a steam with side salad, fruit and toast* gosh what is wrong with me? o yeah I know I just had a balanced meal lol.

    • a steam?

    • Oops pressed the wrong letter, I meant steak.

  • A vegan never answered me why they feel they have the right to impose their morality on others.
    I have a lot of things that I'm morally against such as porn. I'm morally against it but I don't impose my morals on others.

    • Yeah, you didn't read the section #1 very closely...

    • It doesn't justifying impose their morality on others.

    • people already impose their morality on others, hence the existence of laws. they don't need to a 'justification' to do so.

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  • Butthurt vegans and vegetarians are fake ones, just following a trend.
    Real vegetarians and vegans do not have that kind of personality.
    The fake ones should shut up and stop making people hate real vegetarians and vegans.

    • out of interest, did you actually read the text under the first subtitle about "butthurt" vegans, or did you just assume you knew what my opinion was?

  • Damn straight, I agree with everything. I'm about to eat a ham and cheese croissant right now.

  • *eats beef jerky* Your argument has failed to sway me...

    • I think I wasted valuable seconds of my life to read your comment. This take wasn't even about not eating animal products anyway, you should probably read more carefully.

    • I am an unapologetic human supremacist. Animals are just animals and exist to be used by us. I have a dog... I use him for protection and companionship, if I owned a cow I would use him for meat and leather. I would not and do not go out of my way to be cruel towards any animal and I think it is unnessesary and unbecoming to do so. but no animals well being should ever be placed above any humans. If I want to have a bbq on sat... the pig dies on Thursday... it is as simple as that.

    • ' but no animals well being should ever be placed above any humans. ' jesus christ, you're still putting words in my mouth. just read the f**ng take.

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  • let's eat each other.

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