Is abortion murder or a matter of personal freedom?

[Anonymous]

The definition of something living includes the ability to grow, which is exactly what is going on inside a woman, who is pregnant. An abortion ceases the growing process, therefore ending the future life of a human being. This little being may not start with a heartbeat or brain activity, but cells are still dividing and allowing it to.

It arguably it is life when you can save the child in premature birth at age 24 weeks. The 24 weeks old life can both be taken and saved by the same doctors – killing the idea, that it is not a child and does not have a brain. If we would have stock strictly to the free abortion period, you could argues so, but since we do not, that argument is failing under the current laws.

Children cannot be and do not ask about being born, this is purely an option adults have. Whether the woman get pregnant or not is a choice by actions or lack of same, by two individuals – rape excepted. Pro-life individuals say abortion is taking the right to live, from a human being, a right an embryo cannot defend.

In ancient Rome infanticide were permitted under Roman law, but that doesn’t make them humane. Leaving your child on someone’s doorstep, or committing murder are considered a major penalty today, so why not abortion!! Roman law also support the institution of slavery (non-racial based slavery that is, the Romans didn’t discriminated based on race, everybody was entitled to be enslaved by Roman standard), yet today we see slavery as an abomination. Just because it is legal, does not mean is morally right or can be defended morally.

In 1973 abortions were made legal throughout the US, yet many would be more than happy to see them made illegal once more. Do you feel abortion is a woman’s right like the slave owners use to think of their rights to keep the slaves!!!

Abortion is a problem, because you can’t have the right of one part without violation the right of the other (it’s child vs mother in this case). For the taxpayers, abortion is cheaper than having many unwanted babies born and our earth is closes to being overpopulated as it is, so why is abortion a problem?

The answers is, because it ethically and morally wrong and the problem should be handled as a human rights issue, it’s hard to defend human right when the same individuals arguing for it, are so easily killing others just because they don’t have a voice or dear I say vote. Then the human rights outcry, become rather hypocritical when we don’t based our society on a moral principal and stick to it, but pick and chooses based on personal preferences, we then lose the moral justification.

Abortion Facts:

• 40 million abortion are done annually, globally
• The number of unhealthy abortions is unknown, since the statistics doesn’t support the distinction on a global level
• Having abortions legalised is beneficial for most adults, the mother and farther, society in large etc. with only one victim the child – without a vote
• Only 9 Weeks after Fertilization, more than 90% of the body structures found in a full-grown human are present (medical classification changes from an embryo to a foetus at this point) - at this point the child might be able to feel pain, but it’s unknown if it is so
• 24 Weeks after Fertilization, is the latest abortion time, however also within the reach of modern medicine to save the child if prematurely born. Here we see a clear crossover where the same child can be saved or killed, depending on the circumstances

So emotions and the law sat aside, what is morally right here?

[BelleGirl21]

Abortion is murder pure and simple. The first thing pro choice people throw at you is "but what about cases of rape?" I seriously doubt that 40 million women a year become pregnant due to rape. Also if a woman is raped I would assume most of them would terminate the pregnancy very early on or even take plan b after just to be safe. No pro choice people don't usually like to admit that in most cases they just recklessly made a life and are too selfish and immature to deal with the consequences.
As far as the overpopulation thing goes, if we as humans have to deal with that by murder then we truly are idiotic. Maybe we could find other solutions for food and such. And if pro choice people actually cared about over population they would take care of their ability to become pregnant permanently through surgery.
What I hate more than abortion is people hiding murder behind a righteous cause. It's sickening. If it's your "choice" then maybe you should own it and be proud of it. If there's truly nothing wrong with it then why be ashamed of your choice?

[myTake Owner]

I do agree with you :)

[GirlsLie]

Do you think abortion should be legal under any circumstances? for example health issues caused by the pregnancy to the mother or what if the child has extreme health issues?

[myTake Owner]

"for example health issues caused by the pregnancy to the mother" yes, you help the mother and if as a consequence the child dies so be it. It an unfortunate consequence, not a deliberate murder. "what if the child has extreme health issues?", the child still have the right to life, presuming it can live without any assistance - except for care of course. If it can't life on it's own though, then the life is not about to live, however why kill it and get guild why not let it die naturally? When adult asks for assisted suicide it's a choice, the can't can't ask, so should we assume the child wants it? perhaps, I don't know, it might the be kinder option in those specific cases, as least if it can be done before pain is a possibility. Healthy kids however is always a no go, unless a result of rape or incest, then the crime of murder is on the rapist.

[BelleGirl21]

@girlslie only for extreme circumstances like the mother's actual life is in eminent danger. And let's be honest, that is.0001% of the time. A mom just having a hard time because she's pregnant? Ummm sit down, we can share stories.

[BelleGirl21]

Take owner "health issues" of the mother is way way way too vague of a term. I'm against that. See my response above. Health issues of the baby? I'm totally against that. #1 doctors are often wrong about the actual health problems with unborn babies. And #2 who are we to decide the value of human life? That's a horribly bad and slippery slope. I don't know about you but I've known many "handicapped" people who have positively affected my life and the life of many others.

[GirlsLie]

No, i'm talking extreme circumstances and i've actually seen videos on women in other countries, where abortion isn't legal, having to leave and have an abortion some where else because the pregnancy was essentially killing the mother. Also when I was younger my neighbors had a child that was basically a vegetable and they choose to have her anyway because they wanted a miracle to happen. She just laid there, hooked up to tubes all day long, it was awful, she couldn't move at all. To me that's far worse of a decision to force on someone than it would be to end their suffering before it started.

[GirlsLie]

Also i've watched multiple documentaries where a brother was raping his sister, he was over 18 and she was 13 years old, she ended up getting pregnant, I don't think it would be fair to insist a 13 year old, knows how to handle a rape, she probably had no idea about plan B, she certainly didn't tell anyone what was happening, she didn't even know she was pregnant until half way through it. I personally don't support abortion morally but those circumstances do happen and to down play because of your personal choice just doesn't make sense to me, unless you can offer a better alternative?

[BelleGirl21]

@girlslie in the extreme case of rape and incest I support it. I've never claimed otherwise. But like I said, those are extremely rare cases. The other country thing, I don't have much say there. Lots of countries do lots of things I don't approve of. But the US probably commits the lion's share of abortions. In the case of your neighbor that's horribly sad but the baby still had a right to life. I personally have religious reasons behind that opinion. And I don't think murder is the answer there.

[GirlsLie]

I actually agree with both of you, morally honestly. I just don't think it's fair to impact other people's choices because of your own. Like I stated earlier, abortion being legal doesn't limit anyone from not having one but it being illegal does, so why do your decisions and morals get to take precedence over someone elses? I'm not asking this to be rude, i'm really curious lol

[gapminder]

@BelleGirl21 I totally agree with you that personal responsibility is key in these situations and unfortunately not too many people make responsible choices when it comes to sex.

[BelleGirl21]

@girlslie because if you take my religious beliefs out of it, the fact remains that it is murder. You are ending a human life and the unborn children deserve an advocate as much or more than the mother. My personal morals don't make the baby a human life. Two humans being sexually active do that. @gapminder is exactly right. It boils down to responsibility.

[GirlsLie]

I definitely agree with personal responsibility, I think if two people make the decision to have sex, they should deal with the consequences of what they do. I'm also not saying you shouldn't speak your mind or advocate for them, I also think more people should speak out against preventing pregnancy honestly instead of "fixing" it with abortion. But what about the people who don't view pregnancy as an actual human at certain terms and what if they don't view it as murder. Your preference takes away their decision, their's doesn't take away yours.

[BelleGirl21]

@girlslie I don't believe that's my preference. If you committed an abortion on a pregnant endagered animal those same people would come unglued! They are hypocrites pure and simple. That whole it's not life until they breathe stuff is utter nonsense and I think cowardice. Scientifically a "fetus" is very much a living thing early on in pregnancy. That is not just an opinion.

[GirlsLie]

"If you committed an abortion on a pregnant endagered animal those same people would come unglued!" That's a really good point actually. And I agree that it's a child at all points, to me at least but I don't think others should be forced to see it that way as well.

[Mistnigqa808]

"If you committed an abortion on a pregnant endagered animal those same people would come unglued!" Damn that's deep... imma start using that 1 ^_^

[Intraluminal]

Firstly, you are not looking for opinions, you want to preach because your mind is made up. Secondly, you are right that an embryo is alive, you are also right that it will one day become a human being. You are wrong in that 1) Just because something may become something, does not mean that it already is that thing. e. g. A pile of iron, copper, silicon, and plastic may one day become a car, but don't try to drive the pile yet. 2) Women have a right not to have to have things inside them that they don't want to be there. The have a right to their own bodies. You are trying to ignore that right. 3) You are also choosing to ignore what happens after the baby is born. If you force women to carry embryos to term, then you are responsible for the babies that result. Get READY TO PAY.

[myTake Owner]

"Firstly, you are not looking for opinions, you want to preach because your mind is made up" I suppose that is somewhat true in any political debate (including all on GaG, pro-choce, pro-gay rights, pro feminism etc.). You debate to get new view and insight in others opinions, but essentially also to present your own view. 1) No, but even a embryo is a human life already, arguable not with feelings or a sense of awareness, but a human life nonetheless. Don't compare living beings with a pile of iron, totally not comparable. 2) "You are trying to ignore that right." no I have argued why this is not applicable as in other similar circumstances. Those rights are limited already for both genders by the way. You can argue the same about drug or smoking wherever you want to etc., we are limiting our freedom all the time in the name of consideration for others - like the unborn child. 3) I ignore nothing, read what I have written (including reply's).

[Intraluminal]

I have not read all of your arguments, because I am not going to spend the time assembling your arguments from bit and pieces, as you suggest I do (thank you for volunteering my time, BTW). I can easily note however your constant use of FALSE equivalences, e. g. " Do you feel abortion is a woman’s right like the slave owners use to think of their rights to keep the slaves!!!" Note the Trumpian triple exclamation point LOL! But that aside, Taking someone's life and liberty from them, is NOT equivalent to ejecting a non-sentient trespasser who leeches off of your body, threatens your health, and then causes you horrible pain on exiting.

[Ozanne]

Morally, I'm on the side of pro-choice. Against abortion? Then don't have one.

[myTake Owner]

"Against abortion? Then don't have one" obviously, but that is hardly the issues. Murder and rape is not allowed because it have innocent victims, that is how abortion becomes a non personal choice, but a legal matter for society. What I am trying to ask is, what principals should uses to legislate about abortion? Why have the limits right where it is - because as it is, it's clearly not based on a moral principal but on political practicality?

[Ozanne]

Not to sound crude, but if the victim doesn't have a birth certificate, and once 'removed' doesn't require a death certificate then that should be an indicator of why there is no legal repercussion to getting an abortion. One has technically not taken any life to begin with because life wasn't to be had.

[myTake Owner]

Correction one has "legally" not taken any life to begin with because life wasn't recognised legally as life. But you define is as ok to kill as long it's pre-birth and not post-birth correct, then why put a limit to 12 week or 24 week with medical reasons?

[Ozanne]

Because it's too big to abort. That's a no-brainer. I was watching how it's done and the instruments used are intended for a smaller area to make it safe for the mother. Not that it doesn't happen in extreme cases, but aborting anything bigger would take major surgery. And I'm not sure what I said wrong before that needed correcting. Life hadn't occurred legally (no birth, no birth certificate, not need for death certificate) therefore it's not on par with committing rape or murder whereby people get charged and convicted for committing crimes against victims. Those victims are people who are birthed, alive, and have some kind of number in this world.

[myTake Owner]

So your entire argument is based on current laws, not moral or even medical facts, it simply is so because the law say so. So in 1840 slavery was ok, because the law said so, that must be your argument if you truly believe what you just said based on only that? (I don't actually believe you believe slavery was ok, but that's kinda of proves, just because the laws say so, doesn't make it right)

[Ozanne]

You just answered your own question to me then. You asked why, that's my opinion of why. What kind of answer are you expecting from people exactly?

[myTake Owner]

I was expecting a moral argument for why it's ok or why is might be ok with slightly different rules or something.

Some on GaG say yes it murder, but it's ok for the greater good to commit murder - to save money, reducing overpopulation etc..

Some say it's ok, but only until the child have a working brain and starts feeling pain - meaning around week 8-10 instead of week 12/13 or 24.

Some say I'll rather have the rights irregardless of the morals - self-interest and rather selfish I might say.

Some simply doesn't know the fact about he subject , so they just state an opinion based on feeling and wishfully thinking - like religion is most of the time.

Some er against because they actually have moral issues, some based on religious issues.

Point is, I know the law, what I am asking is, if you have toughs about why it's morally ok not just to keep a right of convenience, but goods argument for abortion, then I would like to know them.

My view is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMwkQVpy98A

[Ozanne]

It doesn't matter what I think. If you've made up your mind that you think it's murder nothing I say will change that. I've been through this over and over and over and over in all abortion debates online - not just on this site but many others. I end up typing out my entire opinion only to have it sacked because no matter what, the person ends up viewing me as someone dislikable simply because we have differing opinions about it, which makes my argument easy to dismiss.

[myTake Owner]

It obvious we are not going to agree, but that's the name of game in any kind of political, religious, moral and ethical issues you may think of. The goal is not to agree - it's impossible anyway - the gold is to make people arguer there position and in the process make people think about why they believe in what they do- and maybe refine their belief a bit in the process as they get new ideas and input dig in to get the arguments and maybe find out it's not quite as they though it was. This goes for any subject of course not just abortion. Naturally it only works if people are willing to argue and learn, and if opinion are based on some sort of moral principals, if it 100% emotional based then nothing matters at all, fact, reason and morals goes down the drain in a spit second. The goal is never to completely agree, wherever you have two people you will have two opinions.

[MostCreativeUsername]

If it were murder, than every time I use a condom or masturbate I'd be killing thousands, because my sperm could grow into a kid.

[dudeman]

thats a false argument.

[Telekinetic-Potato]

Why is that a false argument

[MostCreativeUsername]

Would you like to elaborate on that Mr. dudeman. Also, *then (I hate when I mess up my grammar).

[myTake Owner]

You are wrong because only fertilised eggs are alive, sperm and unfertilised eggs are merely building blocks of life. You really need to read up on biology.

[miramiraonthewall]

"You are wrong because only fertilised eggs are alive, sperm and unfertilised eggs are merely building blocks of life. You really need to read up on biology." I dont agree with this, and I haven't found anything that would definitely support this. It seems to be based on the definition of life, but according to several definitions, specifically if the three categories are dead, living, and nonliving, sperm and "eggs" must be alive if they are healthy and functional. I'm not even sure it's possible for them to be dead or nonliving, but again, the definition you're using is probably key. Bacteria is alive. Plants are alive. They are not human beings though. Life ends everyday. The conversation is (or logically, should be) whether you think personhood begins or ends at some point. Life could be described by different criteria including multiple celled organisms, however, plenty of scientists would characterize cells as being alive based on their functions and characteristics.

[miramiraonthewall]

@MostCreativeUsername and Asker

[myTake Owner]

@miramiraonthewall Ah I see what you mean, sure they are alive however as you said not human life. Yes person-hood begins at and ends at some point, I don't know exactly when it starts, but at the least when the brain is full functional and I'll say whenever the brain is in operation. It ends by the death of the brain, since I see the brain as the actually person.

[miramiraonthewall]

I'm pro-choice, a feminist, and I don't consider it to be murder at all.

[myTake Owner]

Why do you say feminist, what does feminism have to do with this?

[miramiraonthewall]

Oh, it has a lot to do with it. My pro-choice stance is largely based on the idea that women's bodies and reproductive organs shouldn't be policed or controlled, in the same or similar way that men's aren't. It's an aspect of gender/sex equality for me, and a woman's right to decide what to do with her own body. It also relates to the common feminist frustration with the tendency of culture to control women sexually and reproductively. I could go on, but that's the gist of it I think. Also, feminists have been at the forefront of the efforts to work for abortion rights, rights to birth control, and tackling sexist definitions of womanhood and female sexuality throughout history. We're still at the front of the defense of reproductive rights against the conservative right. Feminist organizations are some of the largest players in any effort concerning reproductive rights to abortion, birth control, etc. Hopefully you understand where I'm coming from a bit more now. :)

[love2run13]

Exactly, womens bodies should NOT be policed and controlled, especially not by men who don't have to bare the child for 9 months!

[Softballnerd23]

If you don't want a child don't have sex. Abortion in my opinion is awful. With the exception of rape and an awful illness that would harm the child. Otherwise have the freakin baby and stop whining. Abortion has never been about "CHOICE" it's about escaping the consequences of your choice by taking all CHOICES away from another Human Being.

[miramiraonthewall]

@Softballnerd23 Well, that's your opinion. I don't agree, obviously. I also think its incredibly irresponsible to have children when you aren't ready to have them, and incredibly cruel to say children should be born just to be stored away like merchandise until someone wants them. (Foster care, waiting to be adopted, and many/most never will be.) Why would you wish that on child? Do you understand the kind of neglect and abandonment issues, that manifest into other issues, in a child that is left to feel unwanted? Do you understand the common psychological consequences for children, when people who are not ready to have children, don't want that child, and especially people who are in no way, shape, or form fit to have children decide to keep their babies? I would encourage you to start actually caring about children, living breathing human beings who grow up in a multitude of environments, instead of just caring about your views on abortion.

[miramiraonthewall]

It's so irresponsible and immoral to me to tell people "just have the baby." Raising a child is more than just reproducing, and I think every child actually born should be entitled to love, to being WANTED, and to living in a secure, safe, financially stable environment. There's a lot we need to do to better ensure that, and I think encouraging people to ONLY have children when they are fit and ready to have children, and want to have children, is the easiest thing we can do right now. It's not difficult to fuck up a child. Telling people not to have sex is an ineffective and ridiculous solution. Even if you think that is right, that never works. So is it only about what you think is right? Or is it about what works, and about the quality of children's lives when they're born? The latter is more important to me, I'm sorry.

[myTake Owner]

I am quite sure you will find both feminists and non feminists on both sides. That's why I am not sure you can't say as a feminist you are pro-choice - feminism is about the believe in a patriarchy right? but a belief in a patriarchy doesn't really define if the foetus is human or not, or who far into the pregnancy it's would be ok to have an abortion before it becomes murder. Also can't you be religious (most religions are against abortions) and be a feminist at the same time?

[Sexydncr]

You can't be religious and a feminist at the same time? HA THATS FUNNY

[myTake Owner]

Really, I do not believe you are right, I am quite sure you will find some religious feminists out there. You will also find, I am sure, feminists not supporting abortion as birth control - the way it is practise nowadays.

[miramiraonthewall]

I think you're a bit confused, and I'm kind of confused about your confusion. Feminism is the large backing behind my pro-choice stance, therefore I mentioned it. The vast majority of western (and probably beyond) feminists today are pro-choice. The number of self-identified feminists who are pro-life is relatively small, but they do exist in some population. However, I do criticize exactly how feminist they are, if they believe women shouldn't have equal rights over their own bodies. Feminism is about the concept of equal rights. Most of us who identify as feminists would argue that reproductive autonomy is HUGE in the evaluation of equal sexual reproductive rights. And it is a huge reason behind MY pro-choice stance and integral in my understanding of feminism and my expression of it, so I will continue to mention in it in conversations like this one.

[miramiraonthewall]

I personally am not religious, so I may be biased. However, I do think most major religions have inherently antifeminist themes in them (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc.). Having said that, this is one of the main problems in feminism - identifying the sexist nature of religions and many cultures makes feminism seem abrasive to people from a variety of backgrounds. It also leads to a difference in the understanding and application of feminism. And there's an issue of western feminists telling women of other cultures/groups that they aren't "doing feminism" correctly. It's a very tricky area. I just settle on a personal opinion that not all feminism is realized or created equally, and people bring a variety of layers to the identity. Most important is feminism in action, rather than identity. But I would be lying if I said that I don't question someones feminism if they agree with very sexist elements of religious culture. There's just a big contradiction there.

[miramiraonthewall]

I think whether or not you call yourself a feminist, the concept of most equality as possible between the sexes must include reproductive autonomy as much as possible. Men are not forced to do anything with their bodies in terms of reproduction. Women should not be held captive in their own bodies by the law. The only exception that many people have here is very late term abortions, although some feminists still believe no woman should be forced to give birth if she doesn't want to. Its irrelevant, since the vast majority of abortions are in the first trimester, but its a side note, one the right loves to exploit. This is why I say "as much as possible."

[myTake Owner]

ok, I just see feminism as a political ideology based on the idea of patriarchy - I do obviously not believe in a patriarchy and consequently is not a feminist or masculinist if that's what a male feminist should be called. I do get your point though. In any case as I have said numerous times here, the issues is not a woman body, the issues is about the body that is not hers - the baby. If the women is held captive in their own bodies by being pregnant, then it's by nature not law. PS: Most feminist activism don't actually believe in equality, since they clearly promotes inequality - but that's a whole new and very different topic.

[SnowWhiteRoseRed]

Of course its murder, but that doesn't mean that it isn't necessary. Your killing your own baby, a child like any other. It's an evil act to the baby, like a farmer slaughtering an innocent cow. But what if that mother was raped or so poor that the child would starve, and what if that cow was sick anyway and the farmer's family needed food for the winter. Ethics is a messy buisness, but my favorite quotes are "for the greater good" and "neccercary evil."
Babies who aren't killed in the whomb, and are not abdopted or given a stable home are unwanted and unloved so they dont usually turn out as good adults.

[myTake Owner]

Ethics is about not killing innocent people "for the greater good". But what if that mother was raped (I am willing to let the child die in cases of rape, but I'll charge the rapist with murder since it's a consequence of his actions) or so poor that the child would starve - starvation in not a real problem in the western hemisphere, yet here is where abortion is free. That kind of invalidates your argument. You argument would be valid perhaps in India or African, where there are no free abortion in most places, but not in the west. "dont usually turn out as good adults." then we should start killing in the millions as it is already with born people. Clearly that is not ethics at all.

[love2run13]

But it's not even a baby yet it's a hunk of cells

[BlueFire876]

I don't like the idea of abortion. I like it when people are just like, well ill keep it until it is born at least. that makes me feel better. plus i don't think most women really know what they are doing to themselves when they go through that. abortion is known to cause the woman certain emotional consequences.

[Alohaloli]

It is murder. However even as a Christian I have a hard time with black and white on this. If the mother's life is in danger or it is rape of incest I don't feel I can tell someone the right decision. I do think it is done too casually. The morning after pill should eliminate much of the need for abortions. Abstinence is not very realistic in today's world and isn't always the solution as far as rape and the mother's life in jeopardy. Or say the child will have a very challenging physical problem I can't say what that would be. I feel all lives matter. But say conjoined twins that would be hard to separate. That may be an example. Where they we suffer more as they grow. It should never be a decision people make lightly. And they should give that life a funeral.

[myTake Owner]

" If the mother's life is in danger or it is rape of incest...", I am a Christian and I can accept abortion in these exceptional circumstances, I am talking about free abortion as in the US since 1973, not the law as it was 80 years ago where abortion was legal but only when a result of rape, incest or if the mothers life was in danger.

[pinkflirt95]

Murder. Hands down.

[LightsOff]

People really need to stop seeing pregnancy as some sort of punishment. Is that really the way you want kids to be seen? As a punishment? Yeah, that will for SURE make them feel really good about the fact that they were born. "And that, sweetie, is why you were born. Because your mother was a whore and deserved to go through the pain of having you. You're welcome. Have a wonderful life."

And not only that, but to think it's "justice" when a woman dies while trying to get an abortion. Pro-life my ass, you're just pro-women suffering. If people truly were pro-life then they would also be pro-THE MOTHER'S LIFE too and not just pro-fetus life. Don't call yourself pro-life if you're willing to let hundreds of thousands of women die each year due to having back alley abortions (that are, by the way, probably a million times more painful for the fetus anyway).

Maybe we should take care of all the starving, unhappy kids that are already alive and outside their mother's womb before making such a huge fuss over a small lump of cells that is incapable of cognition.

[myTake Owner]

"Don't call yourself pro-life if you're willing to let hundreds of thousands of women die each year due to having back alley abortions" - that is their choice, they chooses to die trying to commit murder. Being pro-life is not being pro save the life of murders, you must understand the difference. The mothers have a choice, the child does not - big difference. Rape victims is another matter, I am talking free abortion only. "Maybe we should take care of all the starving, unhappy kids that are already alive and outside their mother's womb" indeed we should, I can't disagree with that, however one doesn't exclude the other. "uch a huge fuss over a small lump of cells that is incapable of cognition." ... and at what week doesn't small lump of cells become a child capable of cognition, now that is the question?

[LightsOff]

Life is life, whether it's a "murderer" or a fetus. Like I said, don't call yourself pro-life if you can't support all lives. That would be hypocritical as fuck of you. And some women don't really have a choice. I didn't say one excludes the other. But I do think it's more important to focus on what we already have vs. what we could potentially have. The earth is already overpopulated as it is, with adoption centers being overcrowded and children dying homeless, or child trafficking. I would think this is a more pressing issue compared to the potential life of a little lump of cells that is completely unaware of its own existence.

[Onlyinit4fun]

Hear! Hear! Preach!!! @LightsOff

[myTake Owner]

As I said, we can be against children dying homeless and child trafficking, while being against abortion. I do support all lives, so what are you talking about? "more important to focus on what we already have vs. what we could potentially have" we already have live children being abortioned, that is what we do have. " potential life of a little lump of cells that is completely unaware of its own existence." when... when do the little lump of cells become aware of its own existence?

[Onlyinit4fun]

To me an embryo is an embryo. I don't see anything morally wrong in first trimester abortions. Human fetus looks like a lot of other mamal fetuses. It would never be able to survive outside of the body (first trimester development doesn't allow that)

A human embryo vs a calf (baby cow).. yeah I would save the calve's life.

I'm pro-choice (don't believe in forcing women to go through pregnancy and child birth when they don't wish to.) and I'm a vegetarian so I'm also pro-life!! HA-HA ;-)

[myTake Owner]

Nope not really pro life, only hypocritical and you pick and chooses based on your own feelings and personal interests. You did however say trimester development as in after the trimester development is might not be ok, it that correctly understood?

[solochick]

I'm pro-life. I had a rape baby several years ago, and I can attest that abortion is not the option, while giving my child up for adoption was hard, it was truly the best option, and I can also say that it isn't as impossible as it seems. With that said; the argument that the fetus isn't living yet is rather invalid considering that is that fetus was left to it's own devises it would turn into a human being, and therefore you've changed the course of the universe by eliminating a unique individual, whether formed yet or not.

[myTake Owner]

Thump up for you, I admire you choice :) However I am willing to conceit abortion when a result of rape. Why, because it's already a crime, if we charge the rapist with murder as the naturally consequence of his actions, then I can live with the mothers damages being reduced if she chooses too - otherwise the rape will in a way go on for at least 9 months and the knowledge of the result for the rest of her life that a child is out there with those mix genres is continued atrocity. So if she want an abortion, I can live with that, I'll blame the rapist for it - after all it is his responsibility.

[confusedgirl239]

Murder. No matter what trimester you decide to terminate, you are still impacting a heart to stop beating. Furthermore, the argument, "my body, my choice", seems moot because the child's body, in fact, is not the mother's body. Contrarily, that child has its own unique set of DNA that is totally separate from its mother's.

[vishna]

So few late term abortions are done, and they are usually by middle-ish aged white women who have learned either 1) the baby could harm them or 2) there's a high probability the fetus will not live a satisfying life as an adult.

Of course, I hope that as few abortions are done as possible. But early term abortions are not murders in my eyes. Yes, life is ending. But a blastula is not the same as a 24 week, developed fetus.

In a perfect world, every woman could take the morning after pill, after a mishap, take abortion inducing pills early on, but that's not the case. As you said, there is not a definitive time known as to when the fetus is able to feel pain. I draw the line firmly at this point.

I'm pro-choice, but I don't wish for highly developed being to feel pain associated with abortion. Because in my eyes abortion is a type of mercy. Often mothers aren't able to provide for this future child in the way the child will need, and what will happen then? When the life could have ended at 7 weeks, now you have an ailing 2 year old which is cognitive and more developed.

[myTake Owner]

I uses the late term abortions example to prove the 'it's not murder' is clearly not true. I know the 24 week abortions are few and constitutes the extremities but it proves that killing a baby able to live and feel pain and cry is not preventing the pro-choice people from supporting abortions - hence it eliminated the entire argument about it's not murder. It's true we don't have a definitive time for feeling pain but it is about 8-10 weeks, since the neural connections are formed at that time. So we are clearly killing babies able to feel pain. "draw the line firmly at this point" that would be 8-10 weeks then, that would be a dramatic reduction in abortion time - not exactly a popular opinion, however one we can agree on :)

[vishna]

Well not all killing is the same. A vet puts a dog down but that's different from a hunter killing an animal and that's different from someone torturing an animal. And obviously there are pro-choice people who don't agree with the killing of feeling beings. But concrete evidence does not exist for when these fetuses are able to feel pain. I of course would hope that women get an abortion as soon as possible, but just because a woman gets a later abortion-that doesn't make her terrible. Because, as agreed, they are few and fare between and most often those women are in extreme situations. And, I have no problems drawing the line at 8-10 weeks if there was a scientific consensus on the issue. It's possible to be pro-choice and draw a line.

[myTake Owner]

There is scientific consensus about the 8-10 weeks, only we can't test it for obvious reasons. But abortion have nothing to do with scientific consensus but all about politics, economics and practical problem solving vs moral, ethics and principals.

[vishna]

If you can give me a few articles from a reputable source stating this, then I would be more than happy to reevaluate the time frame that is acceptable in my mind.

[myTake Owner]

www.lifenews.com/.../

www.doctorsonfetalpain.com/.../#.VeAWVvmqpBc

https://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/13

Many doctors all over the world, confirms although some say week 9 or 10, some say 8, but 8-10 is well established. The freedom of abortion is 12/13 week depending on the local legislation, and can be extended to week 24 - the reason for week 24 is two fold, one the size of the child is now so big an actual birth is required beyond this point, and next confined fully brain activity from the same age. Hence why the mother won't be allowed abortion beyond this point.

[vishna]

Hmmm, well I certainly don't consider the first or third links as reliable. Are there any other links? Or specific peer reviewed journal articles? Again, I'm open to change my mind. But, I'm not going to believe anything just because.

[myTake Owner]

Of course you must always to critical about the sources of informations, I simply chooses as few examples I googled in English. You can find many more examples via google, the general idea is this is rather established knowledge by now. You can pick whatever source you find creditable from google.

[vishna]

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440624/
www.nytimes.com/.../...politics-of-fetal-pain.html

I also read that when given pain relieving drugs, the fetus may not feel anything. Personally, I would avoid being in a situation where I would be 4 months pregnant and considering abortion. But anyways, I think these 2 articles are reliable.

[myTake Owner]

Actually that is true, pain relieving drugs is pass from the bloodstream of the mother to the child, and also relieving the child of pain. but please also notes the 7 and 18 week possibility of pain, hence the 8-10 week earlier mentioned. The reason we can be sure is, we can make a brain scan without hurting the foetus used and human experimentation is illegal. That's why we can only uses the physical reactions seen on ultras sound and guess based on what is physical possible at the time.

[myTake Owner]

should read : The reason we can't be sure is

[vishna]

I was heavily focusing on when certain pathways were formed and parts of the brain formed, however, I didn't read the article in its entirety.

[theville]

I think its personal choice if its BEST for the mom to BE like if she REALLY doesn't want the kid or would be a miserable person and thus making the NEW life miserable and feel unwanted its BEST to abort and move on - its HUGE raising a GOOD human and I MUST really really want it.. Versus having the kid THEN not wanting it or abusing it which HAPPENS A LOT... SO aborting is a GOOD option!!! Not hardly murder but working out the BEST situation then use contraception and NEVER have that happen AGAIN... GOD would forgive for SURE... Why ruin two lives...

[myTake Owner]

"Not hardly murder" this is the crucial element. If you where right about that, then sure, but are you right about it not being murder technically... legally no doubt it's not murder... but technically it fit the bill. What make the law legal, the answer is humans in power, there are unjust laws because there are unjust people, the law is not just it simply political consensus at the time. Like the salve laws of old.

[GirlsLie]

I'm personally against abortion and I doubt I could never have one unless it was under extreme circumstances, even though I never want children, I just couldn't emotionally handle an abortion.

I do think other women should have the right to have an abortion though, it's not my place or my business to judge their personal circumstances, emotional or physical well being, that should be up to them.

[myTake Owner]

That is what society is doing all the time, judging personal circumstances, emotional or physical well being though legislation. That's why drugs are illegal, why you can't drink and drive, why someone insane can't be prosecuted etc.. Why is abortion the almost only exception?

[GirlsLie]

I think drugs should be legal, I think if anyone over 18 wants to do them they should be able to, it's their decision, even if I hate drugs. I think prostitution should be as well, if you're an adult. I understand what you're saying but drinking and driving also harms others.

[GirlsLie]

Morally I don't agree with abortion personally and I do view a pregnancy as a child, no matter the term but that's why I personally wouldn't have an abortion. Others may not feel that way though, babies develop and some people don't see them as an actual baby yet at certain times during the pregnancy. Others may also feel that abortion isn't murder. The difference is, when abortion if legal, you're not impacting someone's right to not have an abortion but when abortion is illegal, you're actually imposing your will onto someone else.

[GirlsLie]

if=is*

[myTake Owner]

"I understand what you're saying but drinking and driving also harms others" and abortion doesn't hurt the child, like for instance killing it?

[GirlsLie]

No, I agree that it does but that's my personal opinion and like I stated earlier they may not see it as murder because they may not consider it an actual child yet personally.

[myTake Owner]

"they may not see it as murder because they may not consider it an actual child yet personally" yes, but are they right, how do they know or do they simply uses it as en excuse for the convince of having an abortion? When do the child become an actual child?

[GirlsLie]

In my opinion it's always a child to me but you have to understand that others don't feel that way, have you looked into pregnancy development? in the first month or so, there's hardly anything there at all really. I would still consider it a child or the beginning of a child but it's not that outlandish or unreasonable. I don't think they're using it as "an excuse" they may just really view it that way. Not everyone thinks like we do lol

[GirlsLie]

but it's not that outlandish or unreasonable to me, that they don't view it as a "child" yet"* sorry it's too early for me.

[myTake Owner]

I understand why, it a human life for sure, but clearly not an actual child until some point in the development process. However, as far as I can tell, also based on GaG's responses, those truly in favour of abortion are mostly not caring about the unborn child at all, they seem to me to be more concerned about their own self-interest in having an option should they ever need it. The 'it's not an actual child' is not based on facts or any medical reasons, but simply on them wanting the options if needed, and using it as an excuse to justify abortion. When do the child become an actual child, is actually the most important issues about abortion rights. Either we support killing of innocent humans or we limits peoples right over their own body needlessly. It's a very important issues, I thing everybody should think about and make up there minds not just based on self-interest but based on moral and ethics as well.

[GirlsLie]

Well the thing is, they may not see it as a child and I don't really think it's anyone's place to judge their intentions, they may be like me and support choices but not the act itself and maybe they never want one themselves, we never know. It's a little difficult to protest abortion for me because I don't think everyone should be required to think or feel the way I do about it and whether me or you like it or not, they are entitled to think how they want to. And also like I explained on another post, there are some extreme times when it's actually needed and I don't really think it's my place or anyone elses to get into those women's personal lives and tell them their reasons for having an abortion aren't good enough for us.

[GirlsLie]

Our opinion limits their choices but pro choice doesn't limit anyone's choice, it's sort of like the gay marriage thing. People were/are against it but their choice for it to not be legal, impacted gay people and what gave them the right to do that? their opinion shouldn't take overs others choices. I actually agree with you and I make all of my choices based on morals but others may not have the same morals that we do. I also think people should spend more time educating people on preventing pregnancy and taking personal responsibility for their decision to have sex, rather than just aborting.

[myTake Owner]

Well I don't support slavery just because somebody else may feel it's fine, it immoral so I am against and would never support it. The same goes with abortion, I will never support it because it wrong and violate the right of the unborn child - so women shouldn't have the right to get abortions except in specific circumstances - like rape, the mothers health is at risk etc..

[GirlsLie]

I understand what you mean :) I was giving gay rights as an example because it's something that doesn't hurt anyone else, yet people refuse to let them marry based on personal beliefs. Slavery also hurts other people, I know you're comparing the two because in our minds abortion is hurting the child also but not everyone considers pregnancy a "child" so they could use the argument that they aren't hurting anyone else but themselves with their choice as well. Also if abortion was only allowed in certain circumstances, what would stop a woman from claiming rape even though it wasn't, what would constitute as a serious physical illness, some people my have mental disorders as well or believe that their pregnancy is causing enough illness to terminate it even though you may not think it does. It would be so difficult to pick and choose who could have an abortion and for what reasons. You're still forcing your opinion and choices on someone else either way honestly.

[myTake Owner]

Yes it would be forcing my opinion and choices on someone else, just like not committing rape, murder, theft etc. are being forced upon all as it is even when we don't agree, I'll just add pre-born infanticide to the list for the very same reason rape and murder is on the list.

In any case this is basically the way I see it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMwkQVpy98A

[GirlsLie]

But why is that fair to people who don't believe the same way that you do? (they don't see pregnancy as a "child" and they don't think it's murder) it's a little different argument because it's not as black in white and especially in some cases. I think point 1, it could be argued as not an actual living thing, animals are already living. I'm not saying I don't agree with you or him but it's just difficult to convince me that others have to think like I do. Also his points are pretty biased and especially about the gender of the child and then even taking it to the next level and saying "what if they develop a way to determine if the child is gay or not". I have trouble taking people seriously when they go to extreme's in order to prove their point. You can't assume that you or anyone else knows why a woman has an abortion, you aren't in her head and you can't use that as an argument, since you don't for a fact what her reasons are.

[GirlsLie]

black and white* lol

[myTake Owner]

Ah I think I get you point finally, I'll grant up till a certain point in the pregnancy they can arguing about if it feels pain or not, at some point before an active brain you can say it's living body parts not a full human yet - and it's true to some extent. We all die so why are murder so bad, the paint caused by the process... no we still punished murder for doing painless murders. Murder is about Robbing the victim from a future life, and abortion does that. Of course that only apply if it's human life, well that it technically is, but then some argue it's not human until it got awareness. Fine let conceit to that, when does the child get awareness or feel pain? The answers is within the limits of current laws allowed abortion time frame. So, either the current time frame should be reduces or abortion should be as it use to be, for specifies emergency's only and not a advanced birth-control, depending on the arguments.

[myTake Owner]

In any case current law doesn't follow any arguments ever presented by anyone, they are hence wrong in it's current form regardless of what you believe, except for convenience or for those supporting infanticide. So if we should let the benefit of the doubt causing to allowing abortion, then we should as least define the principles we wish to follow, right now we follow nothing but political consensus, we are inconsistency and do not followed what people think we follow. We are killing children that feels pain, have brain activity and can live if prematurely born - at the current stage, is at least in some cases, we do undoubtedly commits murder in the name of freedom of abortion. At the very lest we should restrict the right to abortion's time frame and perhaps also the reasons for allowing abortion to restricted. There is no excuse in our time to not use birth-control and still escape the natural consequences on the cost of a unborn human life.

[GirlsLie]

I definitely agree with that but I was under the impression that most places only let abortion take place within the first 3 months or so, I think, i'm sure it's different everywhere though. I actually agree with you completely morally, it's just that I don't agree legally, if that makes any sense lol

[electrollama]

I'm sympathetic to both sides; I get that on each extreme you're either killing an infant or denying a woman a right to make some personal choice with her body; and the current definition is pretty scientifically sound as far as we know, but there's also the question of whether we should base morality of ending life should stop abruptly at the edge of our definition of what life is; so my final answer is that I don't know, and I reserve the right to not have an opinion on this.

[myTake Owner]

"denying a woman a right to make some personal choice with her body" Factually wrong, we are temporarily suspending her complete autonomy for the sake of her child, she did CHOOSE to have, when they didn't use effective birth-control or the morning after pill. Just like no drug is a limitation of freedom, or no prostituting is a limitation of freedom or conscription is a limitation of freedom. So is not smoking everywhere you pleases, not be able to hit, kill or rape anyone is also a limitation of your freedom. So limitations on freedom is done all the time for obvious reasons. "the current definition is pretty scientifically sound as far as we know" not at all, scientifically it's a human life, scientifically it can feel pain from week 8-10, scientifically we can safe prematurely born at age week 24 and still we abortion the very same. Current definitions are politically based not scientifically. Legally it's not human life until birth, so a 9 month old unborn baby is not human lif

[electrollama]

Internet says 24 weeks is the legal limit in the US, but 13 weeks is the limit that most clinics have.

[myTake Owner]

Yes that is true, and?

[boringmurderer]

no matter what, i am going to prioritize the life of an already grown, developed, and functioning human being over the life of some cells. therefore i am pro-choice, more willing to support a developed and already thinking and breathing creature than a cluster of cells. the mother > some fetus without its own opinions, its own tears and fears. the fetus doesn't have any of these things yet. the mother does. i'm not going to support the fetus over the mother.

i don't personally think of it as murder but, in the event that i did start to consider it murder, i'd consider it justified murder.

[myTake Owner]

"some fetus without its own opinions, its own tears and fears. the fetus doesn't have any of these things yet" at what age do the child/foetus get that and at what age can you have abortion?

[Jager66]

So what is your opinion when a fetus can survive outside the mother at any stage of development? We are getting VERY close to being able to do this it's only a matter of time. As soon as the fetus is out of the mothers body and on artificial support it is now a human being with it's own rights. A right to know it's father and a right to collect child support from the abortive mother who gave up her rights to having the child because she wanted to get rid of it...

[Sexydncr]

@jager66 adopted children don't even have the right to know either of their birth parents in closed adoptions. I doubt a child that was removed at 4-5 months or later will have more rights than a child surrendered at birth.

[Jager66]

Possibly, only time will tell, a closed adoption is not the same thing as an abortion however and it's very unlikely everywhere will have the same laws. The point I'm getting at is that this is going to be a huge issue when it comes up and all kinds of new arguments and legal battles will surface. Like what if a child gains a disability because of being aborted instead of carried to term will that child now be able to sue the mother when it gets older?

[Sara413]

I'm pro-choice because I'd rather see the children who ARE born be wanted and cared for and provided the opportunities they need in order to live fulfilling and productive lives, than see every accidental pregnancy go to term only for those children to be raised in poverty with a parent who has no time to dedicate to their growth and home education because they're working 3 shit jobs just to get by. Or to see desperate women and girls forced to seek back alley abortions which may leave them dead or irreversibly damaged, or could result in a failed abortion attempt and a severely damaged baby being born to a mother who could not afford to properly care for a healthy child, let alone one with special needs.

[Sara413]

I consider MY stance to be more Pro "LIFE" than those of pro "BIRTH" advocates who stop caring the moment the baby is born.

[myTake Owner]

So we need more abortions then, far too many children are not wanted or cared for as it is?

[myTake Owner]

I do certainly not agree with you stance is Pro "LIFE" , it's pro-freedom for women... not life , life quality perhaps but not life.

[Sara413]

We need better access to and unbiased education regarding contraception, including judgment-free abortion as a last resort option.

[myTake Owner]

I'l' agree about the better access to education regarding contraception, judgement-free abortion is political opinion I do obviously not agree with. I do believe in factual based abortion education. If a child can feel pain when 8 weeks old, and abortion is done until the 24 week in certain circumstances, then we are killing children that feels pain, is this ok? If so, why not kill born babies as well, if they are not wanted or cared for, why the difference?

[Ozanne]

@Sara413 my girl, you just give great opinions all over the place. I agree with you wholeheartedly here.

[Northeast106]

I agree, I view it the exact same way. I do see both sides of it, but at the end of the day sometimes, sadly, abortion can be more compassionate than a life with parents who don't have the means to take care of that child. I just think of someone going through 18 plus years of poverty, or dealing with a crazy situation because they were not planned for, or wanted.

[myTake Owner]

@Ozanne "great opinions" is just that in your view, because YOU wholeheartedly agree with her, it's not great arguments, fact, principal or anything uses full for those who don't FEEL the same way. @Northeast106 If so why not kill born babies as well, if they are not wanted or cared for, why the difference?

[BaileyisDarcy]

Abortion should be kept legal.

If it were illegal then backyard abortions would once again become prevalent, and we will end up losing, not just the child, but often times the mother too.
It is cheaper to not have that many unwanted children around, it's also better for the environment to not be forced to overpopulate anymore than we already have.

I would much prefer to live in a world where unwanted children never know what it's like to be unloved, than to be in a world where every corner you turn there is an unwanted, unloved child, feeling the effects what it's like to be a burden.

There are too many children who know what that's like even now. To make abortion illegal is to force this on so many more innocent kids who don't deserve the punishment they receive due to their parents, or a single persons stupidity or mistake.

[myTake Owner]

To follow your logic, we should legalise all drugs then, to stop all drug related crimes?

[Intraluminal]

Absolutely except for minors.

[BaileyisDarcy]

Major difference between drugs and pregnancy. While both can be avoided, sometimes there is no way for the woman to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. There is always a way to avoid drugs. In my opinion, if you take drugs and OD that's your own damn fault. We all know what drugs do. But yeah, most drugs should be legalised. Less people would use it then. If I go by an actual account of what happens when something is banned, at my old school everyone wore ties. To the extent that the school made ties compulsory, but of course once they did that, everyone stopped wearing ties, and the school gave up, made it not compulsory, and everyone started wearing ties again. It's the same principle.

[dudeman]

the back yard abortions should be the only ones that exist. who care if the women dies while trying to kill her baby. thats called justice.

[BaileyisDarcy]

That's called, you're a fucking dick. What if that chick had been raped? What if the baby was going to be born with a defect that would have killed it in a few days anyway? What if carrying the baby to full term would have killed the mother?

[dudeman]

rape and medical reasons are very rare in abortion. its a non argument

[myTake Owner]

I am against abortion, however I see an exception for rape and incest victims, the difference is I'll blame the man for those deaths, not the victim. Obviously there are major difference between drugs and pregnancy, but it's the same principle. In your opinion we should legalise everything incl. murder if it serves a purpose and the benefits outweigh the cost. I on the other hand believe in moral principals and I am willing to pay for a moral society.

[BaileyisDarcy]

And it's apparently moral to allow children to be born unwanted and have to grow up with that knowledge. Great. I can totally see how that will end well.

[dudeman]

of the two choices yes its more moral to allow a child to grow up unloved then to kill a baby. how do you not get that?

[BaileyisDarcy]

Because the baby is not a baby at that point. Its a fetus. It does not understand the concept of pain or emotions or even the fact that it exists. It is just an organism living off its mother. A child is a thinking breathing human being with a whole range of emotions that, pushed too far will maybe only end up killing itself anyway. Would you rather not save a child than subject it to growing up hating itself?

[myTake Owner]

"It does not understand the concept of pain or emotions or even the fact that it exists. It is just an organism living off its mother" .. ok then, at what age / week, is this no longer the case?

[BaileyisDarcy]

At whatever age it is that they've proven a working brain function.

[myTake Owner]

We are having abortions well beyond that as it is. The eighth week of pregnancy is a special one, because at this point the precursors to all organs have been formed. You can therefore argue that with the beginnings of a brain, the foetus now has the ability to think and react, and that marks the onset of life. Abortion is done as late as week 24, however at that age premature-born are also saved because they are fully living children. Therefore current law are not in accordance with your own view and principals.

[BaileyisDarcy]

No, I am aware. But I said a working brain function, not the moment it begins to form.

[myTake Owner]

The brain is fully functional at week 12, hence why free abortion is limited to the 12 weeks, however abortion are done until week 24 when certain conditions are meat, how to do feel about that? Meaning we do killed with full brain function and working brains, between week 12-24, however on limited conditions?

[BaileyisDarcy]

Okay. For myself personally if it ever came down to it I would try to either get an abortion before the twelve week mark or not at all. Apparently my initial reasoning has been thwarted so. I try not to think about it. Very few people are opposed to squashing an ant on the sidewalk. Most people have no reason to think about any pain an ant might feel or what it might be going through as it sees your foot come down upon it. To me, an unborn fetus, that has not made it's presence known (by movement noticeable to the mother) has the same place in my head as an ant. I have no way of understanding it's thoughts feelings, and comprehension if it even has any. And don't take that the wrong way. Because I know you probably will. I just have no other way of putting it without sounding like a complete dick. . . So, because I'm tired of arguing this. There are downsides to both sides of this debate. Either way, not everyone will be happy. That's just the way it is.

[BaileyisDarcy]

I highly doubt I will ever change your mind, and I can guarantee you won't change mine.

[myTake Owner]

Sure if you wish to prioritise your self-interest more than principals or morals then please continue to support abortion. You mind is made up, and that's' that.

[Intraluminal]

@dudeman Here's an idea. pro-lifers who can think rationally, and use common sense can vote against abortion rights. Oh wait! are very rare in pro-lifers it's a non argument!

[cancerbabe]

Abortion has its own reasons... If u don't play safe and abort it's wrong. If u have medical or life threatening issues. I don't think it's wrong

[Softballnerd23]

I agree. Rape and illness should be the only exceptions.

[myTake Owner]

Yes life threatening issues and rape is something different, that was the way it used to be before the free abortions laws.

[Betwyn]

As for when the cut of should be, I'll leave that to the Dr's and researchers..

But Abortion is not, and should not, go away.

I don't ever want to have kids. And I'm not just meaning raise them. I do not want to be pregnant, to give birth.. To have that damage done to my body.

Nevermind the fact, that many of these children who wouldn't be aborted, would grow up with horrible lives. Mothers who don't stop drinking, smoking.. who are hooked on drugs.. What about mothers who would pass on disease to their children? Or children born to unwilling mothers/families, in 3rd world countries?

What about Global over population?

Yes, more needs to be done as far as birth control.

Never getting pregnant, is much better then aborting the pregnancy.

But.. when it all slips through the cracks, and it is needed or wanted, it should be there.

[myTake Owner]

In essence, it's ok to kill in order to save money and reduce overpopulation?

[Betwyn]

Yup. Also to save my body from having to deal with pregnancy. Besides, I'd make a shit mother anyways. Sometimes, I'm even in favour of post-birth abortions.

[myTake Owner]

Interesting your advocating human rights violations and even speaking against the Canadian constitution. How about we start by eliminating all young Canadian women, would that suite you, it's a way to start global overpopulation reduction?

[Betwyn]

LOL You're funny. If abortion was against my constitution, it wouldn't be legal here.

[dudeman]

abortion is against the constitution at least in the united states.

[myTake Owner]

"Sometimes, I'm even in favour of post-birth abortions." Post-birth abortions are against your constitution, and it's a criminal offence under your current laws.

[myTake Owner]

But how about we start by eliminating all young Canadian women, would that suite you (it's a way to start global overpopulation reduction)?

[Betwyn]

I'm not really sure why killing all young women, would put me in a suite. You seem confused.

[Betwyn]

And, many American States are into Post-Birth Abortions.

[myTake Owner]

I meant suite you like in 'it suits you well'. "I'm not really sure why killing all young women, would put me in a suite." What do you think I mean by that, obviously not something about clothing? Infanticide is not legal in any civilised state, US included. What other American States do you talk about where infanticide is legal?

[Betwyn]

1: A suite is not a suit. https://lmgtfy.com/?q=suite#

2: I wasn't talking about infantcide.

Many US states to post-birth abortions on killers.

[myTake Owner]

1. Ah misspelling then, obliviously English isn't my first language. 2. Post-birth abortions are infanticide, please google it

[dudeman]

science says life begins at conception so the researchers have made up their minds. also dr used to take an oath not to give an abortion until roe v wade then very few medical practitioners started doing it. so it seems there is a consensus. abortion is murder.

[Betwyn]

I just thought you were an American. I didn't say how long "Post-Birth" lol and.. if the Dr's would just respect my wishes, an abortion would never even be a possibility. I don't want kids, so let me get sterilized.. But, they won't.. I might "change my mind"

[myTake Owner]

"I didn't say how long "Post-Birth" - 1 sec post-birth is illegal and it's called infanticide and am not kidding, Google it if you are in doubt. Hence my comment about Post-Birth abortion. "I just thought you were an American." - sorry I am from the old world, now called the EU :) "Dr's would just respect my wishes" they should and you can have it done in Europe for sure, it's not a problem - you might regret eventually, but that's your choice and we should interfere with that since it for you alone to decide. Abortion however is not just about you, it's about protection our fellow humans, just like we don't permits murder, rape and child abuse and called it a personal choice.

[GirlsLie]

"I don't want kids, so let me get sterilized.. But, they won't.. I might "change my mind" I do agree with that part of what you said at least. Women can't get our tubes tied where i'm from without first having 3 children already but if a man wants a vasectomy he can have it done anytime.

[Betwyn]

When I say "Post-Birth" I'm not talking kids. I'm talking adult wastes of oxygen. I know by calling it post-birth it is misleading, but it is said with tongue in cheek.

[myTake Owner]

Sorry I don't understand "adult wastes of oxygen."?

[randomocity]

personal freedom, i dont consider the thing alive until it can breathe oxygen for its self

[myTake Owner]

So a 9 month old, but yet unborn baby, can be killed at will in your view then.

[randomocity]

its not a baby, its a fetus. a pre-baby. but personally im not going to make a decision for someone else. we shouldn't be able to choose what someone does with his or her own body. and a fetus is still considered a part of a womens body because until it is born the baby needs the womens body to grow. we dont get all worked up over tonsils being removed. and this might be a bit of sidetracking, but why is it everyone is all for protecting kids while they grow up but then at a certain age (mainly 18 but could change depending on situation) we just throw them out into the world and dont care anymore? for instance, we get more worked up over a car accident where a kid is killed then where just an adult is killed. the adult was a kid once too you know. but whatever, people do what they do. (and yes, the 9 month old can die based on my view, since he/she was going to die anyway, its best to save him/her the pain of dying later.)

[myTake Owner]

"since he/she was going to die anyway" no the alternative is to get born and live. I do agree about having a lot of other issues in the world besides abortion, however just because we have one issues doesn't mean to should be interest in others as well. Otherwise to should choose between the arguing against racist or sexism, or saving the whales or stopping pollution. We can do more than one thing you know.

[randomocity]

"since he/she was going to die anyways" what i meant was that we all will die at some point, its just a matter of when. And yes, i totally agree that we can solve more then one problem at a time, but lets actually solve problems and not make decisions like this for other people. racism? easy fix. instead of everyone being all "Im white and im proud" Or "Im black and im proud" Lets all agree to be just human and be proud. sexism? same thing, "Im human, your human, end of story" seriously, we all make things WAY more complicated then they need to be because we think that is what we are supposed to do.

[myTake Owner]

"but lets actually solve problems and not make decisions like this for other people" So rape and murder is ok, because let's not make decisions for other people!!! We make decisions for other people all the time though legislation.

[randomocity]

lets not make decisions for other people when those decisions are only about themselves. if someone is trying to hurt someone else, yes stop them, obviously. but if someone is choosing to do something that would only effect themselves. then leave them be

[DaveyYourFavey]

I think it should be allowed for a certain amount of time. Up until the point where the child is considered a foetus. I think it definitely should be allowed in cases of rape or where there is a genuine risk to the mother's life. I don't think that any woman should HAVE TO carry a baby for nine months and give birth if she doesn't want to. But I also believe that you shouldn't be able to abort a near fully developed baby. If you believe that abortion at any stage is murder then don't have one. Everyone has different morals and if someone has different ones from you then why would you force them comply with yours?

[myTake Owner]

So week 8/9 then?

[DaveyYourFavey]

Yes I suppose. But I'm very split on the whole issue of when a child can be considered a person.

[madhatters4]

"Do you feel abortion is a woman’s right like the slave owners use to think of their rights to keep the slaves!!!"

seriously abortion and slavery are comparable?

i'm pro-choice. please respect that
I'll respect your pro-life position

[myTake Owner]

It an analogy, a similarity between like features of the two things not saying it is same, to assume so is stupid. Abortion is abortion and slavery is abortion, they do have one common feature and that is what I am comparing. Both contains legality over life and death of another human being, simply because the law say so, and the law say so because of those in power is in favour of it, that's the similarity.

[myTake Owner]

correction slavery is NOT abortion...

[madhatters4]

analogy: a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification so you comparison of slavery to abortion is on the level of life or death of a human being? where did slavery pertain to the death of slaves? If you want to compare slavery to abortion it should be on the grounds of human rights... or better yet if you want to compare abortion to something maybe compare it to assisted suicide or capital punishment whereby people choose to take a life based on personal beliefs.

[myTake Owner]

Actually no, both contains legality issues over life and death of another human being against their will. You can have an abortion without legal consequences because the child is not classified as a human, the same goes with the slaves. You could kill your salve without any legal consequences because the slave was not classified as a human. The analogy stands as I said it.

[madhatters4]

fine you win. unfortunately (or fortunately) you aren't winning and won't win the ultimate battle against abortion a question I have is why do you care what someone does with their own body? would it be better to have an unwanted child born and thrown into the foster system (which is a proven failed system)? would it be better for those impoverished people to have children who become an instant burden on the welfare system with little to know chance of getting out? is it better to have a child born of incest or rape to be born into the world serving as a constant reminder of the mother's pain?

[myTake Owner]

a question I have is why do you care what someone does with their own body? ->Because there are victims, just like with rape or murder, we don't actually ignore those crimes do we!!! would it be better to have an unwanted child born and thrown into the foster system (which is a proven failed system)? ->What would the child prefer do you think, death or life in foster care? would it be better for those impoverished people to have children who become an instant burden on the welfare system with little to know chance of getting out? ->So we kill to save the taxpayers some expenses? is it better to have a child born of incest or rape to be born into the world serving as a constant reminder of the mother's pain? -> in those circumstances I agree with abortion, since the child's death is the result of the crime of rape/incest - I would however have the rapist condemned for murder as well as rape.

[myTake Owner]

fortunately you aren't winning and won't win the ultimate battle against abortion -> of course not, this is not about reality it is about morals. The world is about power and money, it's cheaper to kill so we (humans) kill to save money - we even have wars to make/save money.

[dudeman]

abortion is worse than slavery. more people have died from abortion than from slavery.

[madhatters4]

dudeman do you have any proof of that?

[love2run13]

Abortion is someone's choice for sure, no one should have to carry a child for 9 months if they didn't intend to have it.

[myTake Owner]

No and that's what's birth-control is fore. to prevent this, you even have a morning after pill preventing fertilisation of the egg.

[Aud_Queen]

I recognize that abortion is murder of a fetus/ unborn child--- which ever term you use. But I'm still prochoice. You had me until you compared aborting a pregnancy to slavery. That's not even close.

[jaydogs1990]

Exactly abortion is more like the Holocaust. A silent holocaust.

[Aud_Queen]

No. The Holocaust we're independent human beings with minds and rights of their own. If abortion was the same, there would be no question of whether or not it SHOULD be illegal. It's not. There are two sides to this. The women's rights to her body and the right of the fetus to live.

[Aud_Queen]

Banning abortion isn't right. To me, it never will be. If we do ban abortion, we should also make having sex illegal unless they plan on having the child. If they don't plan on having children and do concieve BOTH parents should be punished accordingly. Making a women have the (unwanted in this case) child, so she can "learn her lesson" is bull.

[myTake Owner]

The only part I agree on is this: "Making a women have the (unwanted in this case) child, so she can "learn her lesson" is bull".. both parents are of course equally responsible for the child. Nothing else you said is true or make sense.

[Aud_Queen]

As is your right to disagree ^_^

[itsallover]

I'm pro-choice in the sense that a woman can have the choice to have an abortion, as well as the choice not to. Pro-life only limits the woman to one, which I think is unfair.

I've said this before, but a foetus that is eligible for abortion is not a living, sentient being. It has no thoughts or feelings, and relies on it's mother for food and oxygen.

[myTake Owner]

"Pro-life only limits the woman to one, which I think is unfair" .. then she can remove any option for the child, I think that is far more unfair. "but a foetus that is eligible for abortion is not a living, sentient being. It has no thoughts or feelings" .. until what week, does this apply? "relies on it's mother for food and oxygen." so?

[Telekinetic-Potato]

Really, it's for you to decide whether it's right or wrong. What do you believe in and is the trade-off worth it in you're mind?

It's a chicken or the egg kind of question that we all must answer for ourselves.

Where does life start a heartbeat? The formation of the first limb, or bone? One could argue that even a partially produced life must be saved for stopping it from finishing would be murder but when does it start then? Does a man kill thousands of children when he masturbates or does a women kill thousands when her body kills off weaker seed?

Ok, so then the logical thing to say would be the brain but even that brings up problems. Do you believe that humans have souls? I personally believe that a human body is almost like a computer and our soul's operate it. That's why a good person could have a brain problem that makes them act like an asshole, or even evil. But now I'm just getting off track

My point is, it's more philosophical than you might think. A lot of the things that we wish science could answer, it simply can't right now. Definitely not now and probably not ever.

[myTake Owner]

"it's for you to decide whether it's right or wrong." actually yes, as I human in a democratic sociaty I have an equal say in this. "What do you believe in and is the trade-off worth it in you're mind?" I believe at the very least abortion beyond week 8 should be illegal, I believe in personal responsibility. I believe in a principal, if a principal is uses as argument for abortion, then the same principal must apply to everything else in our legal system - and it's doesn't. "Where does life start a heartbeat?" life state when the egg is fertilised and starts dividing. The question you want to ask is when it's is human life you can't killed, and that is basically unknown so far, however current laws clearly overstep the boundary as it is. "Do you believe that humans have souls" .. actually I don't, the Bible say humans are souls, we don't have souls, but that's a completely different topic, however still interesting.

[nita00]

If I don't have the necessary funds to raise a kid then I don't want him \her a life In poverty.

And if you don't feel bad for killing a fly.. Or even , for supporting slaughterhouses, then you should also go okay with abortion.

[BelleGirl21]

Did you really just compare the life of a human to a fly?

[olivia183]

@BelleGirl21 Just because it's another specie doesn't mean the life of a fly is worthless

[nita00]

@BelleGirl21 @olivia183 Yes that is what I'm saying. You don't necessarily have to think of a small creature's life, like a fly, but think of all the sheep, fish, cow, pig, chicken that we eat. And I'm not saying that killing those animals are nice, though I'm not vegetarian but luckily I never had to think of abortion luckily.

[myTake Owner]

Then why are murder and rape illegal then, if it's doesn't matter why we do to others why stop at abortion, why not go full kill all humans living in poverty? Why not kill all scribbled or handicapped people with less than normal life quality?

[love2run13]

A tiny glob of cells without a brain that gets aborted is not as important as a woman getting raped, trust me

[myTake Owner]

@love2run13 Obviously not, nobody is arguing that. When however the cells is no-longer just cells but a child with a brain, then abortion is as important as a woman getting raped. Murder is as important as rape, more so even.

[Riverock]

It's both in my opinion.

You're right that it is technically life but as it can affect, and at times endanger, the life of the mother drastically, they deserve a choice especially in cases of rape. There are no easy choices on this matter though. Whatever stance you take involves a certain grey morality.

What would help in this debate is "pro-lifers" seeing the effect of pregnancy on women and "pro-choicers" (if that's a word) seeing the effect of childbirth on men and on not seeing the embryo as an inanimate object that is only alive if they deem it so.

[myTake Owner]

Good answer, I do agree about allowing abortion in case of rape, incest (child abuse), if the mothers life or health is endangers by the pregnancy, in short the way is uses to be before the current laws. On regular circumstances I don't believe the pa rants should have a choice, they have in fact already made it, when they have sex without proper birth control and didn't use the morning after pill. Abortion is too invasive and too serious to uses as late birth control.

[Riverock]

Thank you. I understand why but I would be in favour of there being a certain time frame on the mother making a choice. Though complete, unlimited access to abortions is only tolerable if you only see one side of the argument.

[G-Daz]

Excellent although to be honest i expected this to be another pro death article.

Pro abortion means you believe your individuality is superior to another's. That you believe some human beings are of lesser human dignity than your own.

That one persons ability to void their irresponsibility under the nanny state overrules the life of another human being. Scientifically there is no debate on whether the life form is human and even have a name for it, we know for a fact that it is but people's unwillingness to be responsible is a bog part of it

[TheDevilInside]

Boy, you are inviting a shit tornado. You do know that, right?

People who are pro choice are usually girls who say things like "it's MY body, I can do whatever I want". What about your child's body? Who the fuck are you to decide what should happen to your baby's body? And future. And life. Huh? Whores just don't want to deal with the consequences of being so fucking dumb... that's why they are pro choice. Choice for the mother, none for the baby and often none for the father as well.

To those who disagree, leave your down vote and move along. I'm only here to state my opinion. I'm not leaving shitstorm on other people's opinions, so don't leave your shit on mine too. OK?

[myTake Owner]

I know, but shit storms are inevitable when talking about abortion, gay rights, feminism, religion etc.. Subjects that are very divisive in nature, but if only one or two GaG'er think a bit about what principles they personally wish was applyed and why, then I see it as a success.

[TheDevilInside]

If only... Those topics has been discussed more than enough times. It gets old because the same shitstorms keep happening again and again

[love2run13]

WOW yea I will do whatever I want with MY body cuz if I accidentally get pregnant even when I'm on birthcontrol (yes, it happens), I don't want to be forced into 9 months of pregnancy at least, 20+ years of my life devoted to some kid I didn't even want. No thanks, not when I can just not have the child in the first place

[TheDevilInside]

Yea so you're egoistic. OK. My god, how hard is it to understand that I DON'T FUCKING WANT A DISCUSSION! LEAVE ME ALONE!

[schulzy]

What is morally right to you might be different for others. And do you really think the outlawing of safe abortions would prevent dangerous ones? Hell no. Then you're putting the life of a living mother and a fetus in danger. Or in your case, that would account for 2 people.

[myTake Owner]

I know, but it would be less than the 40 million annually we have now. There are no easy deal here.

[schulzy]

Just don't try and meddle in people's business. You have every right to express your opinion, but what other people decide to do with their bodies has nothing to do with you or even affects you remotely.

[myTake Owner]

Really.. then you don't understand politic or democracy, that is how policies are changed. Arguing changes influencing media etc. until some day the power shifts in your favour.

[schulzy]

Some policies don't need to be changed. This is one of them. The life of a mother and her wellbeing is much more valuable than the life of an unthinking fetus. Why ruin someone else's life by forcing them to do something they don't want to?

[myTake Owner]

"Some policies don't need to be changed" ... yes but they did when abortion was legalised, so that does happen. "The life of a mother and her wellbeing is much more valuable than the life of an unthinking fetus." ... how about hose thinking babies, they are killed as well? "Why ruin someone else's life by forcing them to do something they don't want to" ... unless raped, they made that choice, nobody forced them to not use contraception. But yes, abortion have some up's as well, it cheaper for the taxpayers as well.

[schulzy]

Also, most abortions through proper family planning clinics (pp discluded) raise money via charity funds or help give ideas to their patients about how to raise the proper amounts of money. Also, I said unthinking fetus for a reason. I certainly do believe there is a point in a pregnancy where an abortion should no longer be available unless due to medical reasons, and there are already restrictions on that. And yes, the person did make a choice to have sex. All people do it. Sometimes out of just downright stupidity and sometimes a crazy accident. Just be happy they are taking care of it and not burdening society with another "problem baby" who would more than likely live a sad life after birth. You say you are pro life, but like another take on this site said, you are really just pro birth. You only care about the fetus when it's a fetus, not what it's gonna grow up to be like. I think you and I both know that a lot of children are born into the ghettos with horrible families.

[dudeman]

unsafe illegal abortions are the only ones that should exist.

[myTake Owner]

In the UK, 10.5% is done after week 12, 89% of terminations occurred under the 12 week. However from week 8-10, the child can feel pain. So clearly the law as they are is not what you seems to advocate. Pre week 8 you can argue it's have no brain activity or pain, so it technical in a 'brain dead' stage, I could I suppose understand why some might thing abortion until then is ok, but clearly after week 8 there are no excuses like that. I am not just pro-birth, I am pro principals and moral including how we are behaving in general. I am not a 'you are going to hell' screamer (I don't believe in hell actually, since I believe in the Bible and it doesn't support the notion of hell). I know what you mean by pro-birth, I see the same hypocrisy I am however not one of those hypocrites. "born into the ghettos with horrible families" any child will prefer life in a ghettos with a horrible familie to death.. clearly the child's opinion is not what you care for, it's the parents and society.

[schulzy]

I know kids who grew up in shitty households. Trust me, they're better off dead, which actually might happen one day. They're into gang violence and drugs and alcohol and don't have nearly the amount of opportunity to grow into a proper adult. Taxpayer money will take care of them the rest of their life. I live an hour away from the most dangerous city in the US, and even though the difference in nigh and day, I'm down there more than enough to see the outcomes of having children in shitty homes. But I now know for sure you are religious, so I know this argument is futile lol.

[myTake Owner]

Argument with atheists are equally futile, when logic, reason and principals are absent in there thinking. It's not atheists vs religious nut case that's is the issues, it's the principals vs. self-interest.. that's is the issue. "they're better off dead" that is your assessment not theirs, they properly fight to the death in order to survive, just proving how valuable life is to them, despite your opinion. Argument based on facts works, but only to people who are not basing their opinions on self-interest and feelings alone. So what is your opinion based on, are you interest in fact and principals and do you feel empathy?

[schulzy]

I'm not an athiest, and I believe in facts and the opinion that the parent who is allowing the child to reside and pretty much take over their life (or not) has the ultimate decision. Kids don't have power over their parents after they are born, so sure as hell a fetus wouldn't.

[myTake Owner]

You do realise, that what you said was an opinion based on feeling not fact or principals - at least you absent of arguments indicates that. It was a simple statement of what you feel is right, not a fact that it is so, nor did you define a principle on wish you based you opinion on. Fact: "parent who is allowing the child to reside and pretty much take over their life (or not) has the ultimate decision", true, but not over life and death, so your point is? Fact: " Kids don't have power over their parents after they are born, so sure as hell a fetus wouldn't."... nor does the foetus, so your point is? The parents chooses to have sex without proper birth control, they choose not to not use the morning after pill. They have made their chooses because they are in fact in power, so what are you talking about?

[normalice]

I think all the controversy over abortion is really just controversy over women having sex. There are so many ways to reduce the motivation for abortions by making child birth and child raising less desperate, but no one wants to do those things. Instead, the "pro-life" people also seem to want the raising of a child to be as horrible of a situation as possible. This makes no sense, unless you think of children as a punishment for having sex. In that case, yes, raising a child should remain a desperate situation, and abortions should be banned. That way if a girl decides to have sex and gets pregnant, her life is ruined. God wins, right?

[myTake Owner]

What man isn't interest in women having sex, who could we have sex with if no women had sex... this is a stupid argument. Women can have sex and use contraception, and if it fails use the morning after pill. Plenty of options, so that argument is invalided in the west today.

[normalice]

It would be invalid if the "pro-life" people weren't also adamantly opposed to contraception and didn't preach abstinence as the only solution. But alas..

[myTake Owner]

I have never been opposed to contraception on the contrary, especially if you are also promiscuous (and let's face the bulk of abortion are done by promiscuous women) then a condom is only way to have some protection against STD's. I would preach abstinence pre-married only (not post), and only for Christians, for non Christians however they can do wherever they like and do anyway so why bother. For Christians it's a duty and those who claim to be Christians, but don't follow Christianity... I'll say they are truly disqualifies as Christians, however that is not for me to judge, God will do that - but it certainly is hypocrisy.

[normalice]

that's a very good way to look at it, in my opinion. Now... if you could just convince the rest of the Christians of it, maybe we wouldn't have abstinence-only education in high schools or legislation banning and/or defunding contraceptives..

[SilenRose]

I'm pro-choice. No one should interfere with a women's choice when it comes to her body. Also it's better to provide a safe clean environment for abortions rather then having them to resort to underground procedures or "home remedies".

[myTake Owner]

I don't agree with the "women's choice when it comes to her body" for the reason stated, however the "safe clean environment" is a solid argument, in a way you saying 'the lesser of two evils'.

[doctorwhofan23]

But the baby is not her body, and her baby is a living being with unique DNA.

[SilenRose]

It's not a baby yet and is using me to survive.

[myTake Owner]

Not a baby yet depends on your definition and the age of the baby in question, we are killing babies for sure. I keep using the 24 week example because it's the most obvious evidence of that being the case.

[dudeman]

no the back alley abortions should be the only ones to exist. why should we allow the murder of children.

[dudeman]

it is a baby life begins at conception and you choosing to have sex is consenting to the possibility that your body may be a baby oven for nine months. your rights are not being infringed on because you are forced to take personal responsibility thats just called being a grown up.

[SilenRose]

@dudeman So you rather have the mother and "baby" both die in a "back alley abortion"? Whatever floats your boat. Are you also willing to provide the money for the mother to take care of this baby if she goes full term? I doubt it. The same people trying to trample on a woman's right for abortion are the same people fighting funding for services that provide help for people who don't have the money or resources to give the kid a decent life. Homeless people and children starving. Even the ones who find shelter still don't have the means to have a meal every day, decent clothes for school, and supplies. But you stopped caring after you stepped on a woman's right for abortion.

[dudeman]

yes i would rather have the mom die also. also why should we as a society pay for a women irresponsible sexual choices and why should a baby be killed because of it. women should just accept the responsibility for their actions. so yes lets increase government spending and let western civilization crumble simply because women refuse to act responsibly with the power of their sexuality,.

[SilenRose]

@dudeman Haha, in the end you promote killing and torture. Yet you have an issue with abortions. Okay.

[Random_chick_2384]

Great take 👏👏👏👏

[heywhisper]

I think abortion is awful but at the same time women have the right to do what they please. If I got pregnant I don't think I'd be able to abort because of my religious beliefs. Only way I could abort is if I know my baby will have a mental defect or if i was raped.

[myTake Owner]

"women have the right to do what they please" .. not really, murder is not a woman choice, why should abortion be? "able to abort because of my religious beliefs" .. what does you religion say about abortion, if I may ask?

[heywhisper]

A woman has a right to her body. A child growing in her is HER body. You and no one else has any right to take away the freedom to do with herself as she pleases. I get rally sick of men trying to control women. I'm a christian obviously my religion doesn't tolerate murder.

[myTake Owner]

The Bible say the law of Moses was from God and is a perfect law, and the law of Moses say abortion is murder. Hence God said abortion is murder, therefore Christians are against abortion, so you are either not a Christian or yore against abortion - you can be either, but you can't be both.

Maybe think of this (although not related to religion at all):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMwkQVpy98A

[heywhisper]

I can be a christian and be okay with abortion. I'm okay with gay marriage too. Who are you to tell me if I can't be a christian or not? I love everyone as God instructs me too. I'm letting God do the judging.

[myTake Owner]

Ok, this is really a shift of subject. But you argue you can call yourself anything no matter what you believe in.' So I can say I don't believe in God but I am a Christian and you'll say ok you are a Christian then because you said you where... I do obviously not share your definition. Bottom line is, you claim to be Christian but do still believe in abortion, although it's awful you still supports it. Even if the Bible prohibits it you still supports the awful abortion, you yourself wound't use. Why, because "women have the right to do what they please" even when it's against the Bible. It not really possible to agree with you on that. However, I do partly agree with this "Only way I could abort is if I know my baby will have a mental defect or if i was raped." ... rape or incest is a crimed committed by a rapist, hence an abortion is on his head, so I can live with the murder of the child as I see it as a naturally result of his rape. Obliviously I'll have him charged of murder.

[Wat3rL1ly]

Im pro life, my dad was one of those "inconvinient" babies. My grandmother found out she was pregnant at 17 with my dad. When her parents found out they kicked her out of their house to fend for herself; she was forced to marry her abusive boyfriend. Years later he left her for someone else and she married my grandfather. My dad was her only child. Had abortion been legalized 3 years earlier my dad would most likely not have been born, my brother and I would not have existed, and my daughter wouldn't be here. Four lives extinguished from "a right to choose". You're not just murdering one baby, you're wiping out the generations to come. Watching my baby on ultrasound at 10 and 21 weeks i can't imagine how someone can justify ripping him or her out of his or her environment to die in pieces on a table.

[doctorwhofan23]

Thanks for your story.

[NatashaJ]

How would you know if your grandmother would had taken the abortion? seriously she could had gotten a abortion anyway during that time if she wanted to. When abortions were illegal women went out and did them illegally anyway. You using "if abortion was legal I wouldn't be born" is not a really good defense for pro life. Just saying.

[NatashaJ]

Also just because abortion is legal doesn't mean every single woman will go out there and do it so.

[vishna]

Saying abortion is wrong because you wouldn't be here is not only slightly egotistical but... odd. Should my boyfriend cum in me as to not extinguish the potential babies we could have? What do you mean by extinguished? Something has to be lit before it can be extinguished, so technically-only your father's life force would have been put out. @Wat3L1ly Also, abortions that late are rare and are usually only done because the baby is highly defective and would most likely not live a satisfying life. The overwhelming majority of abortions do not happen when a mother is 5 months pregnant.

[oddwaffle]

The moral of the story is that if you are not responsible to someone else life then you don't have the right to make life decisions for those people.

Rather than be greedy and try to bring out as many lives as possible, wouldn't it be better to focus on helping those who actually need help? There are hungry, desperate and beaten down folks out there needing a hand and people are focusing on something irrelevant to them?

[myTake Owner]

One doesn't exclude the other. However, you can't defend an injustice by saying "wouldn't it be better to focus on helping some one else who need help". We should fight all kinds of injustice abortion included. And yes fighting only to save unborn children but letting millions of born children suffer is hypocritical. But all I can do is argue and maybe, just maybe make one or two people thing about why they really support abortion. That is the extent of what I can do. The world will be just as unjust tomorrow as it was yesterday.

[oddwaffle]

Actually no, you have a finite resource, time and effort. You don't want to do everything and fail at them all. Do one thing at a time. Pick the one you can do and is the most effective. You can do more than argue. Donate your income. A couple of dollars can save a person life if you know where to donate. Injustice, unfairness and the whole evil things occur everyday right in front of you. You don't have to do anything. If you do, pick the one that you are certain is going to help rather some controversy.

[myTake Owner]

That's should stop any democratic person fighting for or debating what he or she believes in.

[Kaylove96]

I think it depends on how you see it. People who see it in a bad way can think of it as murder, it's murder to them, where people who are for it can see it differently

[myTake Owner]

I know people do see it differently. Slave owners didn't see the slaves as human either, that didn't make then right though. So the issues is not what people 'think', the issues is what is real.

[Kaylove96]

That's true. Opinions aren't facts and everyone is gonna have different opinions on things but that doesn't mean that they're right. There's always a reality, the truth that you can't change. It really shouldn't matter what people think or say. The only thing that should matter is the reality. And I'm a logical person so this makes perfect sense to me and this is how I always talk. More logic and less bullshit

[myTake Owner]

Yes, we need more logic and less bullshit in politics.

[Kaylove96]

Seriously. Why can't that be?

[myTake Owner]

Why can't there by logic and fact in politics - well essentially because most people let their feeling and self-interest decide their politics. Abortion is just a more extreme example of how self-interest makes the decision for most.

[Kaylove96]

I think it's just so stupid

[lamera]

I believe abortion is a someone's choice and no one should be able to take your decision from you or have the right to command you to do something you don't want to, it will always end up badly

[myTake Owner]

1. We do that all the time - "no one should be able to take your decision from you" 2. That someone, is every member of society this is about moral and not a personal choice, since someone else's life is involved - someone's choice

[lamera]

1. please give examples of your choice is taken from you 2. how is pregnancy not personal? since it involves the person

[myTake Owner]

1. Conscription is done all the time, incl. the USA in case of total war. The decision of what to do with your life, or not to kill is taken away from you as a soldier at war. Our laws limits our operational freedom all the time, like we can't smoke wherever we pleases that's a limitation of our personal freedom. You can't drink and drive. Almost all law are somehow a limitation of our freedom, for the greater good of society or for consideration of others rights and freedom. 2. It ceases to be personal when it involves somebody else's life, otherwise rape and murder would be personal as well. But it isn't because it involves others. Our choices and options are limited all the time in consider ration of others. Abortion involves a unborn child, hence is not solely a personal matter, and it's also why it's regulated by law today and why is was once illegal altogether.

[lamera]

1. War - people sign up for (personal choice, and contract you sign when you join the military, drinking and drive isn't in the same category as war or a solider following orders in the war, Abortion is legal, so you just defeated you own statement, abortion help for a " greater good of society " and still a personal choice that if woman had an abortion today doesn't affect your life at all, but significantly effects hers, and you should command or dictate what she can or can't do 2. abortion only affects the woman's life not another person I really don't understand why, you really want to command another person, one you have never met and doesn't effect you on a subject that is completely legal, safe procedure or medicine, and really a decison/conversation between a woman and her doctor

[myTake Owner]

I do not want to command another person, never did I just don't want this injustice to continue indefinitely. 1. The USA had conscription during WW2, conscription are men that did NOT sign up for it but are forced by the state - men only, so also sexist in nature I suppose. "drinking and drive isn't in the same category as war or a solider following orders" I never said it was, I gave examples of how choice are taken from us all the time. It's the very nature of laws to make restrictions hence limiting our choices. "Abortion is legal" true, but so was slavery once, atrocities are done in the name of the law all the time. The law is instituted based not only on moral or fairness but also based political consensus. 2. Not really, you forget about the child inside the women, it's a separate human being I can assures you I would argue against slavery had I been alive 150 years ago, just because it's legal doesn't make it right or victim free.

[lamera]

Abortion doesn't equal to slavery, and to use this as a comparison is an insult, please learn the history of slavery (years of discrimination based on a person's skin color, lynching, public whippings, rape constantly, families constantly broken up and sold away, people being cooked alive, forced to kill others who learn how to read or any form of basic education, worked to death, pulled apart by horses or dogs, or being beaten to death for just look at person of different race or you were killed just for sport or because someone was bored) the next time you want to use it as an example to abortion " Not really, you forget about the child inside the women, it's a separate human being" - not a separate being if it can't live on it own, still a woman choice, a tumor is technically alive but you don't get upset when people remove, which is still a decision person and there doctor, many people get abortions because of medical mother and child die, mother or child die,

[lamera]

mother abort so they don't have to watch their newborn die within a few minutes, rape, if you say they should keep the baby if they are rape, is sadistic, or financially they can't afford it and they can't live with the idea of a child constantly starving to death, but your augment is they should be forced regardless of the reason and when the child is born and lives in a life of suffering, that cool you get to sleep better at night because you did something you think is great and couldn't care less about the quality of life of child, but as long as the mother suffers in the end

[myTake Owner]

"Abortion doesn't equal to slavery" and nobody said it did, was I said was atrocities by law is done all the time, the law can therefore not be uses as an argument to support atrocious acts with innocent victims. Bottom line the law can be unjust, so legality alone doesn't prove anything. "not a separate being if it can't live on it own" - false, separate human DNA and alive, and at some point with beating hart, full functional brain and capabilities to feel pain. "still a woman choice" only by current law "a tumor is technically alive but you don't get upset when people remove" nope a tumour is living cells not alive, a child is alive a tumour is living big difference. "many people get abortions because of medical mother and child die" not very many no, but in those cases just like rape, incest abortion may be justifies. But the right to free abortion is something different, it's essentially birth-control gone wrong.

[myTake Owner]

"financially they can't afford it" then they (both parents) have to start being less selfish, and face up to the natural consequence of their actions - pregnancy is a natural consequence of unprotected sex, during a certain time of month for women. "they can't live with the idea of a child constantly starving" this is not the case in the western world and the right to free abortion is only here. "starve to death" that would be criminal neglect of the child, a criminal offence.

[lamera]

you keep using war and slavery which in an conversation of abortion, which you were equating them to it so quit lying on that point it clear from "Separate human DNA" statement tells me you haven't had biology or genetics class which I've taken both, DNA is in everything in the body, skin, hair, blood, anything that have to do with cellular repair or growth, a growing fetus, isn't a unique or separate DNA, it has genetic similarity from mother and father otherwise paternity wouldn't be possible abortion became legal because so many women were dying because they were performing their own and too many parents had to bury their children a tumor is a cell growth unable to go through cell apoptosis which is a clump of living cell unable to die abortions which mother and/or child are many reason parents get abortions abortions aren't free, they are $500 to $800 each time, so no they aren't a ridiculous notion of birth control, it is emotion and tough decision for mothers to go through

[lamera]

Thanks for admitting that you want people to suffer because it makes you feel better, even though it doesn't effect you They are many children now starving in the US today and no their current parents aren't in jail, it constantly in the news, there are so many documentaries and abortion is free in many countries like China, but not the US, next time please do some research before you want repeat propaganda

[myTake Owner]

"war and slavery" is analogies for how we are forced again our will by the law, not a comparison for anything else. Please try to understand what I am sying rather than accusing me of opinions I don't have. "Separate human DNA" please reread the subject, the growing foetus DOES have a unique AND separate DNA, yes it has genetic similarity's from both the mother and father, it''s a mix but separate and unique (unless identical twins) DNA for sure. Elementary biology 101. "tumor" is living cells not a separate life, sure you can arguer until some point where it becomes a foetus, then is just living cells as well - maybe so, I'll let the benefit of the doubt be in you favour. However at some point, about week 9 or so, that is clearly no longer the cases. I didn't say every abortion is birth-control, I am not even saying abortion can't be justifies in some extreme cases (like rape or saving the mothers health or life).

[myTake Owner]

I am saying the freedom of abortion is baseless and is often uses as a delayed birth-control - some do it because the child is sick, having the wrong gender, the wrong farther etc., but often simply because they found out too late). No mother have the right to kill her child without good cause, as it used to be 50 years ago. "... admitting that you want people to suffer" of course I don't want people to suffer, I only want them to not kill in order to not avoid the natural consequence of their own actions. Abortion can be justified, but most of the time it isn't, it's simply a convenience of escape the bad side effect of a certain behaviours. " many children now starving in the US today" fair enough but still a separate issues, I am pleases the EU are more civilised than the US, with universal healthcare and faire welfare systems. The issue you mentioned is about US domestic welfare policy, rather than abortion policy.

[myTake Owner]

Yes abortion is legal in China and India for that matter, still is no a justification. Only they do have some serious poverty issues, overpopulation and to some extent issues regarding accesses to birth-control. Non of those excuses are valid for the US or EU, hence doesn't justify abortion in Tennessee or Germany.

[lamera]

DNA isn't separate or unique, genetic disorder carried from mother or father, genealogy (which test looks for common family markers on the alleles, common medical problems like diabetes, stroke, or high blood pressure, if DNA was separate or unique from the parents then they wouldn't have any of their parents genetic disorders, which is why when you go to the doctor they ask for your family medical history, and there isn't elementary biology 101, maybe you should take BIO 1 You keep mention "natural consequence", which means you want them to be punish, it wouldn't be a consequence without some crime you think they committed, and how many abortion have you been present for and ask why they are getting it, because mostly it Tumor - are still living cells and can't live outside the body, so now you are nitpicking on what is a life or not And I didn't mention Tennessee so I don't know why it relevant or different US seeing that Tennessee is apart of the US

[myTake Owner]

Every hum being have unique* DNA, a child have a mixture of genre from BOTH parents, had they had the same DNA as one, they would have been clones. It's really BIO 1 to know this. Hence the child's DNA is both unique and separate from the mother, since it have only about 50% from the mother. Natural consequence meaning, if I overeat a lot of sugar and fat, I'll get fat, that is the natural consequence. It's not a punishment, it's simple the effete of the cause of overeating, nothing more or less. Then having fat-suction instead of regulating your eating habits would be the wrong way of dealing with it. About nitpicking tumours, I am simply saying living and being a individuals is not the same. Any living plant or bacteria is alive, but they are not living individuals/persons or whatever you want to called it. Tennessee and Germany was two random picked examples of the states of the US and EU respectively. *identical twins excepted of course, then two have the same DNA

[dwiller943]

It's never murder.

[HappyDominant17]

Its so... debatable. I mean it is murder, it is killing a living thing. But when you swat a fly do you think of it as murder? What gives us the right to play god. Not that i believe in god. I think its more about if or not that mother would provide a decent life for the kid. Also.. over population is fucking ridiculous as it is! but oh no its murder, never kill.. then we're standing on top of one another with no food, and boom, religious people are saying "god wanted this to happen" don't use your brain which god supposedly gave us to use, follow an ancient book.

[Yasmine_yasmine]

I'm pro-choice. It all depends on the circumstances.

[myTake Owner]

When it is ok and when is it not, and based on what principals?

[Phoenix98]

It's killing plain and simple.

[Bards]

If they aren't prepared to raise one, they dont need to have one.

[dudeman]

and if they abort they should be sterilized.

[Bards]

@dudeman says the loser who thinks "no" means "yes"

[dudeman]

no most times does mean yes. where have you been living.

[Koldhearted]

Can't it be both

[myTake Owner]

How can it be both?

[Koldhearted]

why can't it?

[jacquesvol]

The church permitted abortions until quickening for 1800 years. So did common Law. It changed only with 19th century Puritanism and Christian revival. Now it's legal. Full stop.

[myTake Owner]

Humans makes the law legal, there are unjust laws as there are unjust people. What's legal therefore doesn't say anything about right or wrong.

[jacquesvol]

In your reasoning right or wrong is abstract and determined by religion or philosophy. Right is what's approved or commanded by a deity or something alike Wrong is what's not approved by a deity The whole NT doesn't mention abortion once. In the OT babies were massacred by dozens, women's bellies were ripped open. In the OT abortion was even prescribed if there was a suspicion the woman had cheated. In reality right or wrong is determined by society and laws are determined by representatives of society.

[myTake Owner]

No right or wrong is an absolute. What an individual see as right or wrong are determined by personal believes being political, religious or philosophical. You don't legislate based on the NT or the OT, the law should represent all incl. atheists. The law however should be consistent and based on some moral principal, and when those moral principals have been defined then all legislation should conformed to those principals. The current laws are inconsistent, you kill a baby at the same age as you save it. You punishes for it's murder at the same age as you say you can feely kill it. The laws are inconsistent and incoherent, I want consistency based on moral principals.

[jacquesvol]

That's your opinion. Nothing more.

[dudeman]

abortion clearly shouldn't be legal. its murder there is no way around that fact.

[Scrambledagain]

A) Men should not have any say in abortion as its not their body. Forcing your view on a girl is exactly like slavery. B) Your argument where even you said is "arguable", as to what defines living... is still arguable and yet you still went off to conclude the rest of your opinion based on the assumption that you are correct? Anyway, abortion is fully valid based on circumstances. If you were raped or the baby is deformed, or going to be born with detrimental abnormalities, or an honest mistake happened where you had a baby by accident (condom broke or something), and you have no money to support the baby... yeah then I would abort.

[myTake Owner]

A) Men do all the time, that's why we have elections, it's called democracy. How about drugs, that your own body as well, yet not legal. We do make such limits all the time. Besides it's about the baby not the parents. B) What defines living is the main issues, you are right about that. If it's not life, who cares right, if it is then it murder or sorts. Naturally there are issues about rape, deformity and abnormalities that's why I said the society benefits from abortion. The real question is, it is ok to sacrifice those kids for the sake of society and taxpayers?

[dudeman]

all men were once a fetus so men definitely should have a say.

[angelling]

Around where I am people use abortion like contraception. I'm pro-life but it doesn't really matter so I've just learnt that abortion is legal and people are going to do it and that's the end of that.

[myTake Owner]

Yes it will remain legal, in fact Ireland is considering legalising abortion now, so it's going the other way. At least we should try to minimise abortion, using it as contraception is well expensive if nothing else.

[Unit1]

"So emotions and the law sat aside, what is morally right here?"

There is no certain answer for this question. Only opinions. Nothing is right or wrong here. I say it's to do or not to do.

I am Pro-Choice and say abortion is indeed murder. I think Abortions should remain legal for any case. It's still the mother's choice to take an abortion or not.

The world I know? We're getting overpopulated and cannot support such amount of humans at the moment. At least not locally in our god-forsaken 3. th party places.

[myTake Owner]

That is at least an opinion based on something you have though about. I do not agree with you, but I do respect your opinion because it was argued for logically and you do based it on a principal, namely the great good of mankind (reducing overpopulation etc.).

[QuestionMan]

I see abortion as a last resort in the event of an extreme circumstance such as rape, teenage pregnancy, financial instability, mental instability and other extreme cases.
This is why abortion must be legal.

I am however against using abortion as a form of contraception if someone was too stupid to not use a condom.

[BelleGirl21]

Teenage pregnancy? Maybe they shouldn't have sex if they are too immature to deal with the consequences.

[myTake Owner]

Free abortion make no suck distinction, besides there is a major difference between : *rape *teenage pregnancy *financial instability *mental instability They are not comparable nor in the same category. Unless you point it based on society's financial situation post birth?

[QuestionMan]

@BelleGirl21 They have the right to have sex if they choose to. Abortion should be available to them because of the effect that giving birth could have on their body as well the situation they are in mentally and financially.

[QuestionMan]

I never said free abortion. It should obviously cost money to perform the operation. All of these categories can be tied together such as rape and mental instability, teenage pregnancy and financial instability. I also forgot to mention that giving birth could be detrimental to the mother's physical health but that was implied.

[myTake Owner]

When I said free abortion, I meant freedom of abortion, it was a poor translation from my own language. Teenage pregnancy and financial instability, I'll say no abortion at all, you made a choice NOW live with it. If the pregnancy is detrimental to the mother's physical health, I'll say abortion is justified, the same goes for rape. Mental instability is more tricky, presuming we are talking the child and not the mother. I don't see them as comparable situations at all.

[QuestionMan]

Mental instability refers to both the mother and the child. If the mother has gone through a lot of stress and now has to deal with a baby than that is just unfair to her. As for the child, if it is going to be born disabled in anyway abortion would be the best choice in preventing a life of misery. As for financial and teenage pregnancy, people make mistakes. Sometimes the condom breaks and people just aren't ready for it. I wrote in one of myTakes that a serious discussion must take place before having sex for the first time to go over who uses contraception, whether either partner has STDs/STIs and what they would do in the event of a pregnancy. Sadly few people have this conversation, but you can't punish someone for being naive and horny. The abortion would be a way out and a lesson since I doubt a woman would ever want to go through such an experience again.

[QuestionMan]

The problem with pro-life is that it's anti-choice. It's more about punishing the mother and forcing her to have a baby than anything else.

[Kuraj]

Nobody but the mother should have any say in the matter, is what I think. If you think your opinion is relevant you are free to adopt all those would-be-terminated children.

[myTake Owner]

What I really want to know is why you think so? It sounds like you think abortion is done for the benefit of society (in essence to save money), is that it?

[Kuraj]

Abortion is done for the benefit of the mother and of the unborn child, women get abortions because having a kid can ruin their life and the life of her would-be-kid completely.

[VampireEmpress]

how about taking care of the kids after they're born? my mom said no one talks about how there are so many kids living in poverty now, but there are all these stupid abortion protests.

[IdkImJustMe]

I agree. people could be devoting time into helping those children in poverty or our flawed adoption system instead of this never ending debate

[Ozanne]

Agreed. Another problem is that adoption for kids becomes increasingly harder once kids are no longer infants. Children who become toddlers are statistics thereafter in the foster care system who can't be placed in to permanent homes because couples are looking for infants instead, which there is a waiting list for that's years' long. No one thinks of this either during their protests.

[Red_Arrow]

@Ozanne - Here our paths diverge. The belief in whether the fetus (or even zygote) is human life goes on, and so will the debate about abortions. But your reasoning bothered me in this one. Using the argument that there are infants on waiting lists, and even worse, older children on waiting lists as part of the argument that abortions should be legal comes out like lets just euthanize the kids on the lists if you believe that the pre-birth babies are human life. And why should one think of the kids in orphanages when considering if abortion is right? That just makes the argument to be expediency over right.

[COCOCHANEL]

i'm pro-let-the-child-have-the-choice

[danceislife080]

I personally would never have an abortion -- for my own moral stance I do not think I could handle having an abortion, and I know I could adjust to having a child. However, I don't think it should be illegal. I am 100% pro choice, it is up to whoever is carrying the fetus whether or not they want to go through with it.
I hate how there is so much pressure on woman when it comes to abortion. Do I think it's okay to kill a 24 week old fetus? No way, but it's up to HER it is NOT up to you or anyone else if she has to go through with it. What if she has no support? What if she was raped? I agree with those who are saying, it's better than raising a child in a horrible situation -- drugs, poverty, drinking, etc.

That's my take.

[dudeman]

its up to her what she does yes i agree however choosing aboertion should just be punishable by law.

[myTake Owner]

"No way, but it's up to HER it is NOT up to you or anyone else i" actually that is what laws are for, protecting the innocents. That's why rape and murder is illegal, when another person is hurt by your actions, then you personal freedom is limited already, I don't see abortion being any different. Current law are just wrong as where the slave laws of old, being the law doesn't make it right.

[danceislife080]

Then you sure as hell better wrap your four inch dick if you don't want to unexpectedly be a father. It's a mans problem too.

[Monsters]

Everyone has a choice but the baby.

[myTake Owner]

"Then you sure as hell better wrap your four inch dick if you don't want to unexpectedly be a father. It's a mans problem too." obviously the problem is not gender related at all.

[dudeman]

four inch lol baby I got the anaconda. id fuck your mouth through your pussy

[GirlsLie]

he would give you the best 10 seconds of your life danceislife080...

[ThatBritishLad]

Freedom. *Moves to next question*

[RationalMale]

It's murder.

What's really hilarious is how legally, women are as responsible as children in the USA, while men have full adult responsibility, and then some.

A man accidentally gets a woman pregnant, and does not want to be involved with raising the child, financially or otherwise... Deadbeat dad! Lock him up! Who cares that the Constitution explicitly forbids debtors' prisons?

www.texasobserver.org/.../

In the USA, a man doesn't need to actually impregnate a woman to be legally held accountable as a father. If he didn't do a DNA test in time and contest paternity? Tough luck cuckold, pay up or go to jail!

A woman accidentally gets pregnant, and does not want to have a child? She can literally go pay professionals to crush the child's brain or "extract" the child limb by torn limb from her womb, and it's all good, she's an upstanding citizen!

[Telekinetic-Potato]

I don't agree with you're conclusion, but I totally agree with the body of your comment. I hate how women aren't held accountable for anything. There's all this feminism bull crap but the second accountability comes into play or one of the other countless luxuries of being a women get taken away, we; all of a sudden, are horrible evil men.

[takumii]

This conservatives call these fetuses something like "a baby" .. It's great, just for 1 thing, it's not a baby !!! It's not counted in the national census. It's going to become a baby , but it's not at the moment. It's like calling a cow , a 'beef burger' , it's not a burger it's a cow, which eventually may turn into a burger.

Another thing, we cannot just classify when life was born, when did that fetus get life.

[myTake Owner]

It's true it's not baby from conception onwards, it becomes a "real baby" somewhere in the third trimester. The words embryo and foetus are used for a reason. The term baby is uses as a emotional appeal. However, we can classify when life was born, when did that foetus get life that do happens at conception. The issues I think your are trying to talk about is awareness or ability to feel pain, yes?

[jacquesvol]

Is it tax deductible before birth?

[takumii]

@TakeOwner, So before the man could say "aaah , that was amazing" There is a third person in the room. Before the woman can say " What are you thinking? " there is a third person in the room ! Before both of them can get up and pull up their underwear over their fat asses, there is a third person in the room.

[myTake Owner]

Conception doesn't happen that fast, besides the egg have to stick to the mother as well before the cells starts dividing. When does the embryo or foetus, become a child in your opinion and based on what?

[takumii]

It becomes a child when it starts looking like one, and even then, I wouldn't think twice to abort that shit. Because we do that all the time, and not doing it for a something just because we made it is biased. Tell me , why don't we share the same compassion towards a tapeworm that we do for a foetus. Both infest our bodies, both came from an outside specimen, and both cause pain when extracting.

[OrangeBoy]

Depends of the quantity of time that have passed since sex.

[myTake Owner]

Meaning?

[OrangeBoy]

Meaning that we need to understand where is the frontier beetween a beeing that can feel some emotions, and the first phases. But im not specialist so i can't point a time.

[myTake Owner]

Yes, that's the dilemma we faces about abortion. As you said we actually don't know, not even the specialist know at this point in time.

[OrangeBoy]

In Portugal is legal for as long as 10 weeks. I dont know how developed may be in this time...

[myTake Owner]

like this:

www.babycenter.com/...r-pregnancy-10-weeks_1099.bc in most countries to can get an abortion as far as 24 weeks under certain circumstances.

This is 24 weeks:

https://www.donnaleeoriginals.com/miraclebaby.jpg

Yes, they are fully alive when 24 weeks old and can be prematurely born.

[OrangeBoy]

It hurts just to imagine... on one side we have woman liberties and the right to bring a child in a better moment, and the other the almost child...