The Misinformed Idea of Gender as a "Choice"

The doctor (Dr. Money) who created this idea that we "pick our gender" was a fraud.

In the 1960's he had a boy regendered as a girl (completely *all genitals removed) and he was raised as a girl never knowing that he was actually a boy.

He was forced to believe all the typical female girl ideas. Playing with dolls, not being agressive, etc.

But no matter how much they tried to force the gender, "she" would always show boy traits and want to play with trucks and "boy" based toys. "She" was more agressive. Etc.

Eventually the child became so agressive and depressed because he was being told he was a female and he didn't feel like he should. The parents finally broke down and told the child that they were born a male and turned into a female.

He instantly changed back to a boy and got a medically created penis. He finally felt normal and started to live a somewhat normal life. Except for the torment of what had been done to him which lead him into drugs. He eventually killed himself.


Gender is NOT a social construct!

People who claim this is a scientificly proven truth are basing their stance on THIS doctors corrupt papers.

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Most Helpful Guy

  • We just discussed this in social psych the other day. Same exact story actually. But I do in fact think gender roles are social construct and I am quite confused because what you presented... kinda... proves it. Just because he ended up with no penis at first, he was still a guy anyways. Maybe, if we were not so pushy on girls with "girl toys" and guys with "guy toys" and all that BS, he wouldn't have became depressed? If society from the beginning was just like, we are ALL humans, just slightly diff parts, and created things that were all the same for all humans regardless of gender, maybe things would be better? Fuck the social "norms." If a guy likes dolls, oh fuckin well. If a girl likes sports... that already seems fucking accepted already anyways!!! Girls play sports, games, join the military, work, change tires, shoot guns, etc and I really see no complaints. Seriously. I really never do. Like ever. But a guy DARES play with a doll or likes ballet, they are shunned by just about everyone. Complete BS. I remember asking my co workers 1. If they would let their boy child play with dolls and 2. if not, WHY? Their responce? No. Why? He'd get bullied. So... is it REALLY his fault? Or the bullies? Why would it be right to bully for ANYTHING? Answer: It never is. Adults believe the Earth is FLAT. I don't see people bullying them for THAT! AND, that's something debunked for like 200 years! Still, not NEAR as harsh bullying on that as there is for a situation like a guy that plays with dolls or likes ballet. When I was a kid, I watched things on PBS or stuff like Full House. Always was more into so called "girly" stuff in some ways. Rejected sports, and various "guy" shows until later on Also liked reading. I was raised with two sisters. And guess what? I can get along with people quite well. At least intelligent ones. When I had my first girlfriend, she said her, her family and even her little bro (a guy who HATED every other of her bfs) liked me. Even dated somebody who flat out rejected me at first. In the end, having some "girly" influences on me ended up being a good thing. No harm in learning to reject sports or deciding to be open to boy, girl, etc while dating. (yes, I consider myself bi basically, sorry, not sorrry). I feel a lot of this BS stems from the Adam and Eve theory in the end. Once you trash Adam and Eve and some other biblical elements, it's a lot clearer. Helped me plenty.

    • They do studies on infants and girls gravitate towards toys like dolls and stuffies. Boys gravitate towards stuff like trucks and blocks. The statement "we were not so pushy on girls with "girl toys" and guys with "guy toys"..." is a complete joke. We don't PUSH these ideas we simply adhere to what naturally works.

    • Exactly, its like saying children should have a choice between mothers breastmilk vs cows milk. When pretty much every child wants breastmilk

    • @lord_chilled Uh, when it comes to mother's vs cow's milk, yah, babies, may prefer mother's milk... but... that's... only at baby stage... once older... yah, I don't see it happening. So for about literally at least 80/82 years of life, cow milk is preferred. Anyways, I agree to go with what naturally works. Therefore, if a boy likes dolls, leave him the fuck alone. Let him play with what he wants. They are fuckin toys, not matches.

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Most Helpful Girl

  • You are right on the part that gender is biological... However what toys you play with or hobbies are not part of your gender and that is the bullshit that makes people think "oh I like Barbie and makeup I must need to chop my dick off" they are part of personality and that is determined by a number of factors. I am biologically female, no gender issues, don't look remotely masculine... I still had "boyish hobbies", I have a "boyish job" and "boyish personality" because I was raised around mostly men and spent my childhood competing and working. In my early teen years they pumped me full of estrogen because they thought my hormones were imbalanced because I liked building things, working on cars, and getting into fights. Gender is biological, that has nothing to do with what you enjoy.

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10 29
  • Gender is a cultural role it is absolutely not inherent. Sex is inherent but what that is “supposed” to mean varies from culture to culture.

    You’re conflating sex and gender and calling gender physiological. Gender i societal term coined by feminists in 1900s meant as an exemplificaton of cultural pressure /expectation /constraints as to how any given sex “ought” to behave. It is not indicative of how any given sex”does” behave. It later became popularized in mainstream culture to indicate how a person if any given sex avoid and or dies behave. The irony is it’s original purpose was meant to expose the intricate implementation of sexism by arbitrarily calling any desired behavior a natural difference, instead led to the naturalization of the conceit if gender.

    Gender us behavior not sex and three us no say pricing behavior is natural to a persons sex rather than the expected behavior of a persons sex.

    I don’t think we can choose sex but I can understand people wanting out from the constraints of the roles of their sex. If gender roles were not so reiebtjessku enforcered in the first place and people fejt freedom to be themselves without being stigmatized, I don’t think “trans” would be at all necessary. Gender created a prison and is surprised when people reject it. You can not make yourself a slave... If your exoected behavior is not who you are and the only way to be yourself and be accepted by society is to change your sexual, well I guess thst is what many will do.

    Imagine fir a moment what to you is the quintessential behavior for a real (stereotypical) Woman. NOW imagine in order to work date have a family become successful have friends play sports follow your hobbies travel without harrasajevt , you as you are now had to follow the expected permitted behavior for what you think a real feminine Wonan would be.

    It’s all very easy to say people are creating problems when there are nobe, when your cage fits your ideal life. A person who is conscious of being condemned to a life of alienation will not see it as not a problem abd WILL fight against it bc we can not willingly make ourselves slaves.

    • NOPE. If it were a cultural thing, the studies on INFANTS wouldn't show that boys generate towards BOY toys and girls generate toward GIRL toys! Infants are not old enough to be socially swayed. Which is also what this video proves.

    • Most medical definitions has sex, and gender as the exact same definition.

  • Why can't we just be happy how we are?

    I find it destructive that we feel the need to change ourselves to feel comfortable in our own skin. Why does one feel so insecure about their gender in the first place?

    • Well he didn't have a say in the matter and our society keeps force feeding us a lie. If they simply acknowledged gender as being biological then they would leave people alone which in turn would allow them to not get hung up on gender but rather just live their lives.

  • Even at the time people questioned it, but he used the patient confidentiality laws to prevent others from doing any research themselves. It was a horrific thing to do, shows that this idea is more religious fervor then scientific fact. We have plenty of other studies showing that gender is not a choice (hell transgenderism itself proves this point), that gendered behavior exists pre socialization in infants, brain structural differences etc. I have no idea why this notion is pushed when its clearly wrong (even the people who push it contradict it all the time (again, transgenderism)).

  • I see gender and sexuality as a spectrum. There will be people that do not fall into neat boxes and I think they should be able to dress as they like, without getting harassed.

    That said you can't expect everyone to remember all 60 pronouns and the correct way to use them and I can't expect everyone to agree with me. With all those pronouns it just gets too confusing and violently forcing beliefs on people just makes them resist more. There are certainly videos of trans people attacking others who just have different views.

  • Yep. Gender is determined by genetics. If you want to call into question the social/societal norms of what it means to be a boy or a girl, fine go have that argument with whomever you'd like. But don't be an idiot. If you see an issue, it's an issue with what society considers acceptable for each gender. I think that's the motivation behind many who ascribe to being "gender fluid." You want to be a boy one moment and a girl the next? Since most people would not be referring to suddenly having a vagina/boobs or a penis/pecs I must assume they mean in terms of how they act and such. In that case the issue is with what society sees as making one a "boy" or a "girl."

    Common people... stop making up more issues than you need. You don't need to be accepted as a new gender, you just need the people around you to accept you as the person you are even if you don't seem average/normal. The issue seems to be acceptance and the false idea that certain behaviors can only be accepted as a member of a certain gender. I sincerely believe this idea only serves to create more unnecessary issues than are needed. Deal with the real issue, don't make up one.

  • IF you have a penis your a Male no matter what. If you have fake breast and a penis your still a male. Unless your a Hermaphrodite. They can be both. Same with a woman. As long as she has a vagina she's a female. This whole I choose my gender thing is retarded. there's 2. 3 if your a hermaphrodite like i said. But there's only 2 sexes..

    • It's not you who's retarded... oh, sorry, yet it is. My bad.

  • This is spot on. And why John Money was never taken out and shot is beyond me.

  • I was aware of the David case. I was not aware that this millennial bullshit of gender being a choice was based solely and exclusively on this Doctors obviously fraudulent bullshit.

    I thought it might have been an over-reaction to the "let's be tolerant of everything" shit that millennials are so fond of. Transgender? Sure, that's a thing, we can prove it with fMRI scans apparently. Bisexual? Sure, that's a thing. Gender as a fluid and choice? Utter shit. And should be called utter shut.

    Be tolerant of anything except intolerance. (And bullshit.)

  • Agreed 👍👍

  • Goodtake. The idea that gender is a choice is a social construct. Biology is not a social construct.

  • Several issues here:

    1. Your entire argument is a Fallacy of Origins. The fact that Dr. Money was a monster has absolutely no impact on the validity of his research. This makes your entire argument shaky.

    2. Since Dr. Money's original publication in 1969, there have been hundreds, if not thousands of follow up studies done all over the world. If his research was invalid, it would have been proven out decades ago. Contrary to your argument, the vast, vast majority of all subsequent science on this issue reaches the conclusion that gender is in fact a largely societal construct. So when you say "people who claim this is a scientifically proven truth are basing their stance on this doctors corrupt papers", you are incorrect - we are basing it on the large body of work done since Dr. Money that corroborates his research (in areas other than the David Reimer case).

    3. You use Dr. Money's story as proof against the underlying concept of transgenderism: that gender is a social construct. This exhibits a misunderstanding of the topic - David Reimer was an intersex person, not a transsexual. Dr. Money literally induced gender dysphoria in David by attempting to raise him as the wrong gender. This is precisely the same thing that happens to most transgender people in the world, and the fact that David's psychological gender matches his biological sex is not terribly relevant given the large number of others in the world for whom that isn't the case. It's proof positive that you cannot force someone to live as a gender that doesn't match their psychological gender.

    • Did you not look at what happened? He said gender is a social construct and thus used societal pressure to raise a boy as a girl. The end result was the boy identifying as a boy despite society telling him otherwise. That shows conclusively and beyond reproach that his research was in fact flawed and invalid. You cannot say his research proves gender is a social construct if the socia construct was ignored in favor of the biological gender. Thats just absurd. No research has ever proved that gender is a social construct, its shown conclusively and with no room for argument that its biological from the affects hormones have on behavior, to the existence of transgenderism, to the significant brain structure differences between the genders: www.cam.ac.uk/.../males-and-females-differ-in-specific-brain-structures
      Their is literally no legitimate debate, we know that biology determines gender.

    • @hellionthesagereborn Well... this experiment proved you can't force someone to be a gender they aren't. You'll notice in this case that the subject didn't have gender dysphoria, and wasn't a trans person. The concept of gender is not a biological question; genetic sex is. That's why the science of biology does not even attempt to define gender. Again, had you read what I posted, there are many, many works that go beyond this guy's research that further explore the issue. Your binary outlook on the world is dated and exhibits a fair amount of ignorance of both biology and psychology.

    • You completely missed the point. Never once argued that transgenderism didn't exist, what was stated was that gender is not a choice, that it is biological in origin. That was what was argued in the initial post and that's what I was pointing out, that you cannot say gender is not biological when in fact this experiment showed rather conclusively, along with decades of brain scans and brain autopsies, endocrinology etc. that gender is a product of biology. That's what your trying to argue, your argument is a straw man, you are arguing something that was not stated. I don't know what the posters opinion on transgenderism is HOWEVER he never once stated anything about it, what he stated quite clearly was that gender is NOT A CHOICE. You then said his argument is invalid, even though you clearly have no idea what John Money's research showed (that his belief that gender was social was in fact incorrect) and you ignored the argument being made.

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  • What you’re talking about is altering a child’s body, forcing it to believe certain ideas and forcing stereotypically gendered things on it.

    That’s NOT the same as an adult saying they’d feel more comfortable in the opposite’s gender’s body.

    Why do you care so much? If they’re an adult they can do whatever the fuck they want to their body, regardless of if i find it ridiculous or not.

    • John Money's theory was that gender is a social construct, as in that it's entirely learned and that it has nothing to do with biology. The idea that the differences between boys and girls have to do with raising boys with footballs and girls with dolls for example. He thought that he could raise a boy to be a girl if he treated him like a girl, and it didn't work - in fact it drove both Bruce Reimer and his twin brother (who wasn't experimented on) to suicide. Yet Money continued to claim that he'd done so successfully, and this is where the idea that gender is separate from sex comes from. It's still taught as fact today, in fact when she went to university they tried to tell my girlfriend that he lived on happily as a woman when she knew it was a lie. It matters because it's not a fact, has never been proven to be true, and as shown with this experiment it can fuck people up mentally.

    • @englisc that still doesn’t explain why it matters so much to YOU. It also doesn’t explain the point very well. We’re talking about a CHILD here, not an adult. We’re talking about a CHILD that did not choose to undergo surgery or be raised this way. I also strongly think that raising a child “as a girl” seems forceful, especially when you know they are not a girl. Is there any insight on the way it was raised? How it was treated? Not allowing a child to play with cars because you have decided to “raise it as a girl” seems rather weird. I can understand you become mentally fucked up when there’s fights over not being allowed to play with yor brothers trucks! Can you imagine? Also, “raising it as a girl” doesn’t exist. Raising it as a stereotypivcal girl does. and that’s pretty toxic to me... why? Because you are choosing for your child, while toys are pretty much the only thing a child has/can have a say in. Children are humans too, people seem to forget that.

    • Why wouldn't it matter to me? I care about children, especially my own. There are many things seens as normal today that are harmful to children, for example spanking is proven to hinder the development of the brain. You might again ask the question that I don't spank my kids, then why would it matter to me if others do? Because I don't want other kids to get hit either because it's bad for them. I can't understand why someone wouldn't care about things that are harmful to children. He wasn't just randomly chosen to be tested - because he had urinary problems he was circumcised and something went wrong during the surgery which resulted in his penis being damaged beyond repair. His parents had seen an interview of John Money on the TV and in desperation they reached out to him to see if he could help. He just saw it as a perfect opportunity to prove his theory right, especially since Bruce had a twin brother who'd be raised as a boy.

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  • Except no, that's just a case where the boy was a male and was forced into a female body. And was experiencing Gender Dysphoria. The exact same thing Trans people face on a daily basis unless they get surgery. The idea of being Trans isn't from this at all, stop making up shit to push your agenda.

  • I've read about that. If you read the whole thing you'll read what a sick fuck that doctor was. He should've had his license revoked and thrown in jail.
    The other brother still raised as male ended up killing himself too. No doubt because of this "doctor".

  • This is just SJW culture trying to warp the world we know on it's head. They are like the hippies of the 60s, the punks of the 70s and 80s and the thing rappers from the nineties.

    Only if an sjw went up to a punk or thug back then and said the shit they say now, well uh that wouldn't go over so well.

  • If that makes some people happier, I see no problem.

    • by the way , the boy lost his penis by a medical error of another doctor: www.BBC.co.uk/.../dr_money_prog_summary.shtml

    • But he wasn't happier, it was forced on him and yes he did have his penis damaged severly due to circumcision, but Money convinced the parents that if they just "switched" his gender he would be able to live a normal life. That was a lie. Then you have the fact that people keep claiming that its a social construct and then use that as an excuse to attack people who function as they are biologically predisposed to act, to argue that sex differences are due to "oppression" instead of choices made based upon biological inclinations. What your saying ignores everything thats going on.

    • @hellionthesagereborn many intersex babies were mutilated in the US and UK

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  • Cool

  • I see gender as a spectrum. I choose to be male because I already have a weewee and a beard and it would be time-consuming to shave it off.

  • Let the fanatics have their many many genders to 'choose' from so they won't feel opressed or discriminated against in some absurd way.

  • Caitlin Jenner, take note!

    • Lol. I still call em bruce.

    • @Handsome_cowboy LOL well said!

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