What Aziz Ansari's Misfortune Has Taught Us Men About Dating Etiquette in 2018

[pavlove]

The Aziz Ansari controversy seems particularly explosive in that it isn't as cut and dry as many of the other high profile sexual assault instances. In the context of this website, I think it is a particularly interesting situation to dissect, because it is an issue that's been talked about many, many times by women on here.

I think the issue really comes down to this--why aren't men more "respectful" of women these days? And, is there a legitimate way to destabilize the power balance so that it's not so one sided in favor of being a man? But it's not about power it's just common sense, you say. Well, I'd disagree. Aziz never forced to have sex, technically, based on her account in which she never verbally protested to what he was doing to the point where he kept going anyway. Yes, he'd "try again" minutes later, but he never simply ignored her and took advantage of her body while she protested and fought him. This is a very grey area that I know a lot of men struggle with both young and old. They think of hooking up like a game and in a game you have to progress levels, use strategies, and ultimately "win" through persistence and skill. Compassion doesn't occur to them until it's too late and yet I would argue that most of these men would feel awful if they could in fact realize it from the woman's perspective.

But to the point of this being about power. Let's play devils advocate and say that basically he did nothing wrong and women are just pissed with the fact that so many guys are only interested in them for sex. That, in a sense, Aziz rejected this woman the minute he made her meet him at his place instead of picking her up at hers like a gentleman. The meetup location, the rushed dinner, the first kiss to oral sex switchup, the obnoxious pointing to his dick until she sucked it, it all was really just one message over and over again: that she was not worthy of being anything but a hookup to him. And, that hurt her understandably. And, that hurts a lot of women understandably.

Her account of what happened with Aziz is not revenge porn, but I don't think it's target is to dismantle sexual assault as much as it is to destabilize men's power on dating. It's to stop guys not from being rapists (rape really isn't at the core of the issue in this case) but from basically being jerks. It's about telling men that it hurts to be rejected in this way. And, in this way, it's a very helpful account because it's bringing attention to us all that pressuring a girl who likes you and wants to be treated like a potential girlfriend like a girl you just want to have sex with is a form of rejection thats more emotionally harmful than physically harmful.

Aziz may lose his career not for being a rapist but for being a "typical guy" as she herself noted in her account. He's being embarrassed and networks may not want to take the chance betting that knowing this about Aziz is going to make you not want to watch him so they may just pull the plug on his work to be safe. And, in a sense, we men should feel embarrassed for acting this way. He should have been upfront.

He should have made it clear that his intention was just to hook up with her. There seems to have been nothing in their prior conversations to make it actually clear that she wanted to hookup, instead he knew she liked him and that he stood a reasonable chance of taking advantage of that fact to get what he wanted from her.

Bringing it back to the topic of us men, we need to look hard at this outdated system of "if i wine and dine her and be nice to her I can try to have sex with her." Yes, if she is making it clear she wants to have sex because you have such an instant connection then yes by all means but taking a girl for dinner doesn't mean you get to try to have sex with her and pressure her (even softly) if she's wanting to take things slower and get to know you. Trust me I get it--a lot of times the girl just isn't hot enough to warrant being your girlfriend in your opinion and you don't want to take things slow and let her get to know you, you'd rather just ditch her. But, clearly what women are saying to us with this account is that it's better to ditch them early on in the date than to try to later at the end of the date pressure them for sex they clearly don't want yet...

Oh, and as an aside that has nothing to do with the above, him performing oral on her after the first kiss is just bad sex no matter what kind of relationship it is.

[hellionthesagereborn]

What it taught men was simply that a woman can accuse you of rape when she decided she regrets her choice of having sex with you. That's all this shows, this isn't him being an asshole, he invited her to his hotel room, she knew, and I know she knew because I don't think women are brain dead unlike you and the media, what that meant. You don't ask for a secluded place where you can easily get intimate and not have the intention to do so. She also didn't resist, if she resisted she would have pushed him away and said no, she didn't by her own admission. She could have left, she did not, so again, that's not a sign that she is disinterested it was a sign that she was playing coy, women like the cat and mouse game in general and if she didn't she could have said something to end it right then and their. She didn't. Personally I don't like the guy, he is a typical SJW (not unlike yourself it seems) who is racist and sexist but doesn't even have the decency to at least have a god damn back bone BUT he did no wrong in this situation and we shouldn't be acting like he did. Again, the only thing this shows is that women can get away with destroying a mans life so never ever trust them. That's why men are refusing to be left alone with women, why business men are not doing one on ones with female subordinates like they would for male suboridinates and its ultimately hurting women but hey, its women who have chosen this its women who can fix this.

[pavlove]

True her shock that he would want to have sex would be surprising except she later says he’s being a typical guy which confirms that she absolutely knew what he was up to

[hellionthesagereborn]

and by her own admission she never attempted to leave and never actually told him she didn't want sex. Its real simple to tell some one that you don't want sex, its really simple to avoid the situation because unless they are a child they absolutely understand what going into some ones hotel room or bedroom means. If the genders where reversed would we even think twice about calling the guy out for claiming rape when it clearly wasn't? Of course not because we expect him to function like an adult not a child. So again, what this shows us is that we have pandered to women for far to long and have allowed them to get away with horrible things. Its shown us that we have to stop treating women like perpetual victims, to stop acting like they are children who don't know any better and start treating them like adults.

[samhradh_leannan]

Based on what I’ve heard, this is simply a case of someone regretting their choice to have sex with someone. She was not raped or assaulted or harassed or pressured or otherwise mistreated. She simply chose to pretend she was okay with something that she wasn’t actually okay with. That’s unfortunate but it’s not Aziz’s fault. It’s not like he was her boss and she felt she would risk her job by saying no, or anything like that.

[ReenaJohnson]

True, but the article talks of how he was a douche by not stating his intentions clearly of wanting to hook up with the girl but instead rejected her by not considering her as a potential girlfriend by having sex with her on the first date.

[TripleAce]

@ReenaJohnson ya... that happens everyday... literally everyday with thousands of people nothing unique here

[SnapTsch]

finally, someone talking since 😇

[samhradh_leannan]

@ReenaJohnson It was her choice to jump in bed with a guy before asking about his intentions or discussing the nature of the relationship. She should have used her noggin a little.

[samhradh_leannan]

If you want some kind of commitment before sex then it is YOUR responsibility to make sure that you have it. Don’t expect your partner to be a mind reader. That’s crazy. If we were talking about a normal guy nobody would be mad at him for this.

[Dio1982]

Sam, I love you. I wish more women were like you. Yes, men are horny like fuck, but 99.999% of men will respect you and your wishes WHEN YOU voice them. But voicing them is your responsibility for your own life. It is not my job to live your life. When people hear no dissent, EVERYBODY will assume in EVERY situation that things are A-OK and can proceed.

[samhradh_leannan]

@Dio1982 There are rape, assault, or harassment situations where the victim shouldn’t have to voice their dissent in order to make the situation wrong. If the victim is barely conscious or obviously incoherent, if it’s a statutory rape situation, if they’re a minor etc, if the victim is the subordinate of the instigator and is concerned about losing their job, or other issues like that. A verbal “no” or obvious attempt to physically escape is not ALWAYS the be all and end all of what makes a situation inappropriate or predatory. But in this case, Aziz did nothing wrong. The girl just made a mistake and did something she regretted. She should have asked what his intentions were, if she cared about it. That’s it. End of story.

[samhradh_leannan]

That being said, it doesn’t sound like he was being very considerate or respectful, based on her account. But that doesn’t make him a sex offender. He didn’t have any kind of power over her. She could easily have simply decided that he was being a jerk and just walked out.

[Kkaos]

This is a joke. A grown woman if more than capable of saying no. What feminism has been fighting for for so long is giving women a voice and empowering them to be able to speak up. I don't give a shit if a girl likes a guy or not, as a 'strong woman' she should have the ability to see when a guy is only interested in her for sex and then leave if she so chooses.

A guy is only interested in sex, big fucking deal. She should have left the moment she felt uncomfortable. Any guy who's idea of a date is the girl coming over to his house is CLEARLY only interested in sex.

[FutureTrunks]

I never looked into this situation nor do I know anything what’s going on expect for what you said and a brief look at a screenshot that one user added in the comments but my opinion on the little that I did read from what you wrote... women are obviously making this world way more difficult than it needs to be.

I’ve tried having casual sex with 2 guys and learned very quickly that I don’t like how a guy who’s uninterested in more treats me sexually. So you know what I did? Stopped entertaining guys who only wanted sex? It’s simple math. Females can protest about how guys treat them during and after sex but in the end, their choices are the problem.

I wouldn’t expect a man who had no interest in me, barely knew me, etc. to tongue me down for hours, give me head, and make love to me then clean me up afterwards. I don’t know what fairytale world these women are trying to live in but I know that this is the case with a lot of these women coming out about celebrity men and it needs to be stopped but of course, the courts are rarely ever in a man’s favor.

These are only going to get worst and I really wish all men could just stop putting vagina on a pedal stool and just wait for a decent female to come along because it’s not worth it.

[pavlove]

You’ll never hear a man talk about his gender as badly as you do yours

[FutureTrunks]

Not speaking badly just stating the facts

[SnapTsch]

I agree with almost everything you said. Men are putting vaginas on a pedestal, but women are trivializing men and putting just the dicks on pedestal. I'll explain what I meant Men are highly likely to be able to keep sex and emotions apart while women are highly likely to fail at it. But with every passing day there are more women who got with the thinking of, " oh, that lady put her her hand in fire and it burned her hand, let me try to do the same and the fire has cooled down " Women keep stoping on relationships, and opt for hookups which don't workout and they get hurt, but the guys they hookup with usually walk away happy because they were offered sex on a silver platter, and the took it. As you said, if you don't want to have sex, don't hookup, why is it so hard for so many ladies to understand? Sex or sexual acts that you regret the next days aren't rape or sexual assault

[lord_chilled]

The amount of truth in this comment is shown in the number of female dislikes here lol

[honesty321]

Very good article. And very well written. It get's exactly to the point.

[OldS0ul]

In the future men who are public figures will have to give their groupies contracts to sign with a lawyer, a notary and a witness present for both parties in order to protect themselves.

[lord_chilled]

True 😂😂

[Gypsy_x]

"If its not a HELL YES, its a no".

That is what everyone needs to be taught about sexual consent. Do not have sex with people who are not 100% into it. Do not pester people for sex. Do not manipulate people into having sex with you. I don't see how this is hard, tbh.

Why have sex with someone who isn't totally on board? How desperate can someone be?

[Goodwifie]

I get the feeling that she was too afraid or shocked to move or even object. He sounds like a creep.

[Gypsy_x]

@Goodwifie exactly. I think sexual education needs to empower girls and teach them it's okay to say no, and teach boys that they should not have sex with women that are not enthusiastic about it.

[pavlove]

Why does someone need to be told it’s ok to say no?

[MlleCake]

Because you don't know what kinds of pressures there are on some women to submit and see themselves as having no self agency.

[Dio1982]

Sex is a totally normal part of the very wide spectrum of social interactions between people. If you interact with somebody socially, then sex is always on the table until explicitly told otherwise. If sex is not on the table, it is her RESPONSIBILITY to make that clear. And this is the case for ALL social interactions. Only a "No" means no, everything else means yes. It is not men's fault that women apparently can't handle even the tiniest amount of responsibility for themselves.

[Astoriana]

@Dio1982 it’s also everyone else’s responsibility not to expect that everyone wants to have sex with them. So maybe y’all need to come from the assumption that no one wants to have sex with you until proven otherwise.

[Goodwifie]

@Astoriana have you interacted with men socially without them expecting sex? I'm sure you have and so have I 👍 @Dio1982 My husband invited me over to his place after our second date and yes I was nervous, but he didn't try anything at all. He didn't try to coerce me into doing anything that I didn't want to, actually we sat on separate couches. He didn't keep pointing to his crotch , he didn't try to pull my pants down and he didn't shove his fingers down my throat. This is normal behavior 👍. Then we kissed when I was at my car saying goodbye.

[Astoriana]

@Goodwifie oh, I know they’re capable of such behaviour. It’s reminding them that they are capable of being normal that appears to be the issue.

[Dio1982]

@Astoriana Being normal means that you never assume that ANYBODY has ESP capability. Stop being a little spoilt and subservient child and start acting like an adult and simply say what you want/dislike. Easy. It also helps you in all phases of life and removes drama out of your life. As a first step, always assume that the fault lies at you not communicating clearly.

[Astoriana]

@Dio1982 why are you so certain that I don’t communicate clearly? In any case, it’s not about me. It’s about women having to stage a coup to get men to believe that they don’t want to have sex with them. Why do you feel so entitled to another person’s body that they have to get a skywriter, say no 12 times, redirect the conversation 89 times and cry profusely for you to believe that they really mean that they don’t want to have sex with you?

[SmoothDude]

@Astoriana in the 5-6 years of dating women i can honestly say that almost non of these women were honest or clear with me, literally never been told what they wanted or expected

[Astoriana]

@SmoothDude perhaps because you didn’t want to listen. And that doesn’t make your own incompetence as a partner okay. If you’re not getting feedback, the appropriate thing to do is to ask.

[SmoothDude]

@Astoriana i was a 100% honest i was literally telling girls what i wanted, i told them if i wanted sex i told them if i wanted something serious i was as honest and blunt as one can get, but no that doesn't seem to make girls think " maybe i should be honest with him " , so sorry if this offends you but everything you just said on this topic is one big pile of shit, you have no idea what you are talking about , many women are okay with everything being done to them and years later when they start disliking the guy start trying to find ways to destroy his life, but no one's buying it, especially the celebs, they will open their legs for anyone who advances their career.

[SmoothDude]

i had a friend get a handy and a blowie at night and the next morning the girl was like " i was drunk, this never happened i dont do these things or get sexual with guys " she then proceded to give him another handjob (she never drank that night, i was with them and slept over while they went to have some privacy), he still bangs her to this day, ... give me a break women aren't stupid if they dont want something they can say so, we dont read minds.

[SmoothDude]

have *

[Astoriana]

@SmoothDude you really are one ignorant child.

[SmoothDude]

@Astoriana if you're going to argue at least be logical and reasonable, small irrelevant reamrks like these make no senes, if you have nothing to add just admit you were wrong nothing wrong with that, just dont try to shove a false truth down our throats when we all know it doesn't work that way.

[Astoriana]

@SmoothDude right, because it’s logical to say that women are only “raped” when they want money or revenge? Okay honey. Sure thing. And I’m the queen of fucking England.

[SmoothDude]

@Astoriana well if they are having sex for money it ain't rape sweetie thats one and two, i never mentioned the word rape iam against rape, and for me rape is when a guy tries having any sexual contact with a girl where she says no and he keeps going or she's knicked out/drunk to the point can't keep her eyes open, now thats rape... what i said was that some women who wish to advance their careers accept to give sexual favors to men or even women in power who can make things happen, thats how some actors go from uknown to oscars in less than a year... i watched a video once about a male model who admitted that sex is heavley involved acting and modeling and those who wish to advance will have at some point (often but not always) to put it bluntly : FUCK SOMEONE. back to my original discussion, women aren't dumb nor stupid, i have had my fair share of interactions with them, and a lot string the guy along (or even guys at time) til they figure our what they want

[SmoothDude]

but i prefer to be blunt and clear so i tell them what i want for one simple reason, they find me very good looking and iam 6'2 as well plus not fat and have a great style, so for me its simple i say what i want if they like it cool if not then we werent meant for each other... but until i say what i want women literally never say what they want, they never make a clear statement of what they want from me they just go with the flow and that flow sometimes involves sex that they could've stopped but decided not to , but a week or so later fuilt bad about doing it so they try to find a way out of it... its unfortunate but it happens.

[Astoriana]

@SmoothDude wow, y’all really have a low opinion of women. And men too. Women are evil harpies and men are bumbling idiots. Definitely logical. 🙄

[SmoothDude]

@Astoriana i am sure you haven't read what i wrote cause even i wasn't done reading it when you replied, now if you want to make an argument be my guest, but throwing random sentences around like a 5 years old with no basis or logic is them is not the way to go, obviously you're just here to rant but you have no actualy substance to your rant, unlike me i am actually giving you real life exampel but you still refuse to believe or even say anything that makes sense, therefore iam gonna leave you in your bubble and move on, if you refuse to learn its your problem not mine, and obviously you lack so understanding of the real world...

[MlleCake]

@SmoothDude Wow, can you be any more condescending? Calling her sweetie and all that? News for you who lives outside of the US - we don't believe it is acceptable to see all women and fair game until they say no. We are ONLY consenting if we consent. If you didn't ask, the answer is NO. If you intimidated the person into agreeing, the answer is NO. If the other person was intoxicated, the answer is NO.

[SmoothDude]

when a guy kisses a girl and she kisses him back, when undresses her as gentley as one could without her saying no, when he takes the time to put the condom in, get into a comfy position and slide it in without facing any kind of resistence from her that is one big gaint YES FUCK ME ! i will not ask a girl " you cool with it if i fuck you?" that literally never happens, and the girl will laugh at me and think iam socially retarded, if she doesn't want it she can say no, women have said no to me and i have stopped iam cool with it, but if she goes with the flow and never says no nor resists or even is happy to have me touch her then that is a yes for me and for 99% of men, like it or not we're not here to please every woman we met and sure as hell not the disgusting feminists.

[Astoriana]

@SmoothDude if you don’t know how to talk dirty, then you must be really really bad in bed.

[SmoothDude]

werent into it or didn't get exactly what the wanted out of it *

[Dio1982]

@Gypsy_x I know you were raised as princess, put on a pedestal and given life on a sliver platter, but no matter how hard you try, it is only YOU who is responsible for YOUR life. Why should ANY man care for anything that you feel? Your feelings are yours, and yours only. No man has any duty to your feels. It is only you who has foremost a duty to yourself. For christ sake, you are already 26 and still walk around life like a little petulant child. You are an adult. If you want or don't want something it is your own responsibility to communicate that. And it is you responsibility to make sure that the communication has been recieved by the recipient.

[Astoriana]

@Dio1982 what is a “sliver” platter?

[Gypsy_x]

@Dio1982 sweet jesus you're a chauvinistic pig

[Dio1982]

Interesting... I advocate egalitarism, female agency and Independence and I get called a chauvinist. So it comes back full circle, women do insist on sexism.

[MlleCake]

@Dio1982 Blah blah blah. In the end, you still don't value enthusiastic consent. That = pig.

[Gypsy_x]

@Dio1982 no, you don't. "Only a "No" means no, everything else means yes." Are you kidding me? If you are feeling a woman up, and she is pulling away or trying to slow you down, that is NOT a yes. That is a "I don't want to do this, but you are pressuring me into it". The problem is that this is normal. behaviour by men, and women don't want to call it out and ruin the potential relationship. Men need to be taught not to pressure women into sexual activity, and women need to be encouraged to speak up and call them out. This behaviour has been normalised, but it is not okay.

[WiggleWasser]

If a bitch doesn't specifically say "NO" and then immediately get up and leave, in my opinion she has consented to take the dick. That's the way nature intended and that's good enough for me.

[Gypsy_x]

@WiggleWasser you are disgusting.

[WiggleWasser]

But your pussy is getting wet isn't it.

[Gypsy_x]

@WiggleWasser lol I doubt you've seen a wet vag in your life

[WiggleWasser]

Ah, shaming language. Have had it baby. Now tell me I've got a tiny dick. Or that I'm gay. Come on Sugartits, you can do better than that one little remark.

[MlleCake]

@WiggleWasser It's not up to you. We're telling you: "We don't like that shit, and we're going to make it illegal and/or socially unacceptable."

This is not "How it was meant to be." All partners have a right to be really into what is happening, and no one has a right to demand otherwise. Not now, not ever.

Men ARE capable of controlling themselves. You are not all mindless brutes. We are not primitive cave dwellers with limited communication skills. All this takes is using your words like a grown-ass man. Being a gentleman. Having some manners.

pics.onsizzle.com/...actions-just-like-2800373.png

[pavlove]

@MlleCake you had me up until have manners and be a gentleman. No one expects women to be ladies but there is a basic decorum. Guys needs to act with some basic decency but to require us to be our "best" selves around women we don't care about is not fair or realistic. Its basic, if he likes you he will treat you amazing and if he doesn't like you he will treat you like a human being but a particularly attractive or valuable human being

[WiggleWasser]

@MlleCake It's all going to be a moot point in a few short years anyway, once sexbots and artificial wombs have completely replaced organic women. The only thing females are capable of doing, their soul intended purpose, is about to be outsourced to electronics. The only reason women are alive is because men allow it. We like pussy and we need you for reproduction. You are about to be replaced by artificial means that will do both better. By 2025 all but the most perfect specimens of organic women will be reduced to standing on street corners begging to give men BJ's in exchange for a loaf of bread. What a great time to be alive! Feminism's last dying gasps were heard during the past weekend's Estrogen -American marches. It's over bitches. MUHAHA!

[Astoriana]

@WiggleWasser anyone who prefers to fuck a lifeless, unmoving plastic doll is not a loss as a partner anyway.

[Astoriana]

Oh, and Pavlova, what exactly do you have against being a good person? You wrote this take specifically to tell men that they have to be better men when they’re dating/having sex with women, and now, you’re suddenly against it. Are you a hypocrite, Paula?

[WiggleWasser]

@Astoriana Yeah, keep thinking that as 80% of the male population decides that sexbots provide better stimulation with zero of the bullshit that organic models come pre-programmed with.

[Astoriana]

@WiggleWasser that’s the sad thing about you MGTOW worms. You are so delusional that you think more people agree with you than they really do.

[WiggleWasser]

@Astoriana Japan is leading the way. Fully 40% of young Japs have foregone women in favor of synthetic love. Lead on, my yellow friends!

[Astoriana]

@WiggleWasser “hurrdurr women are so evil and I wiggle wasser am the most boring man in existence,”

[MlleCake]

@Astoriana You know, if all men shun us, we'll just fuck each other. It's not really a painful threat. That you think of our value as only sexual and as baby incubators tells me, you're not the kind of guy I'd want to date to begin with. We really do not need men who disrespect us. You're not good partners. You're no loss to us. Many of us find it perfectly possible to attract partners who value enthusiastic consent.

[pavlove]

@MlleCake the way you speak, i'm shocked you ever had a man

[MlleCake]

There are TONS of men who value enthusiastic consent. They aren't even rare. I am kind of swimming in dick right now.

[WiggleWasser]

@MlleCake I fully believe that you are "swimming in dick." Any bitch with a twat and no morals could easily say the same. Thanks for being honest.

[Astoriana]

@MlleCake right. And those men are mildly horrified by anyone who thinks it’s okay to fuck anything that stays still long enough. Like the gentlemen who doth protest too much.

[pavlove]

@MlleCake lol don't conflate issues. You're being disrespectful to us and men general in a way that is entirely unneeded to make your point. You seem like you enjoy the war of the genders a little too much...

[Astoriana]

Oy! Pavlova! You wrote a whole take on being less of a jerk to women - so why do you have your back up now when you’re being called on having basic fucking manners? Is it because you are full of shit, and want to continue forcing unwilling partners to fuck you? Is it, Paulina? Is that what you do? We already know that you think having tattoos and wearing sweatpants means a woman is a slut and thus not worthy of respect. By your own admission in a previous take.

[MlleCake]

@pavlove, please explain to me how I have been disrespectful to men? I believe men are capable of self-control and getting enthusiastic consent. It's another man in this thread who said "that's just the way it is" with men.

[pavlove]

@MlleCake that was more meant for Astoria whatever. I don’t think I read your comments in context but basically yes guys should not push it if a girl is not really into it but girls shouldn’t call guys jerks because there are some girls we are attracted to bu would never be in a relationship with. He should have been upfront but he has the right to only be attracted to her physically

[Astoriana]

So, what you’re saying, Pavlova, is that you ARE a hypocrite?

[pavlove]

@Astoriana no I’m saying you’re a hypocrite who’s not interested in interactions between men and women actually impoving but rather just hating on men and demonizing the gender. I don't know how guys have treated you, I’m guessing not well but trying to convince men that they’re pieces of crap isn’t the answer

[Gypsy_x]

Most men are not pieces of crap. Most men are respectful and kind. However, some men do not see a problem with having sex with women who do not want to have sex with them.

[MlleCake]

@pavlove, I don't see Astoriana saying that either, especially when you look at her other comments in this question.

[Astoriana]

Pavlova, you are the only one who has actually called men pieces of shit. I have called men who are opposed to communicating with their partners bad in bed, which, honestly, shouldn’t come as a surprise. If you don’t care about your partner and their enjoyment, you are bad in bed. End of story. So tell me: how am I being disrespectful to men? Specifically. With quotes. In academic language and with quasi-proper grammar.

[MlleCake]

@Astoriana My friends had a professional losing act on The Gong Show doing a fake Hypnotist act. They were called Hypno and Pavlova. You and I should write a MyTake together on what consent really looks like and why it's sexy and cool. Pavlove, Gio, and the other assholes on this thread aren't worth any more of our time. @Gypsy_x, you rock. Thank you for putting up with us.

[Astoriana]

@MlleCake

gifimage.net/.../yas-gif-4.gif

[Gypsy_x]

always enjoy a hearty discussion, ladies. ;)

[lumos]

What I don't understand is why people keeps insisting that there needs to be a clear STRUGGLE for it to be sexual harassment or assault. Like the victim literally kicking and screaming and biting.
There are three ways you can react to a situation, two of which are more widely known and the third only recently becoming a topic; fight, flight and freeze. Freeze is just as natural as the first two. A deer in headlights.
Anyone who isn't totally self-centered and oblivious will understand that if the person you're trying to have sex with is continuously moving away, not touching you, not making eye contact, mumbling things, telling you to slow down, asking you if you can just chill, and flip flopping back and forth between half-heartedly engaging and being passive, MAYBE you should be like "yo this is probably not the right time, we should stop".
No, she didn't kick, bite, scream and try to escape, but that doesn't make what he did any more ok. Whenever you're having sex with someone, whether you're a man or a woman and they're a man or a woman, you H A V E to analyze their behavior. ESPECIALLY if this is a completely new encounter with a new person.
You CANNOT rely on the other person being 100% straightforward, and that they'll start kicking, screaming and escaping if they don't want to. Freezing up is just as natural. So if they're being passive, which is usually PRETTY obvious since they're not doing anything and you're the only one making any advances (pointing at your dick, clawing your fingers down her throat, grabbing her hand and moving it to your dick, asking her where she wants to be fucked and her NOT responding at all...), you should be self-aware enough to stop.
Nothing about her account of the story is a gray area to me. To me, it's 100% about a girl who went out with a guy, got pressured to do shit she didn't want to do, was too scared to be incredibly direct about it, but still did as much as she could to move away and de-escalate the situation by asking him to chill.

[Redstang88]

You're absolutely right. The only thing he s guilty of is not being a fucking mind reader. Guys don't get hints, that doesn't change, no matter the situation.

[pavlove]

Answer me this though why would she say let’s just talk for a while why wouldn’t she try to leave I mean just based on the fact alone that she felt sexually harassed yet she seems to have held hope that he could take her seriously up until the end why still want that from a guy who is doing this to her?

[lumos]

@Redstang88 it’s not about reading minds. It’s about reading pretty clear cut body language. If someone keeps moving away their entire body from you and tells you that they just wanna chill, and you interpret that as ”yeah I want this”, then you’re reeeeeally socially inept and probably a narcissist. Pavlove, like I already mentioned in my opinion, that’s how you react when you’re in freeze-mode. You don’t really know what to do or say. She was in shock and denial. She trusted him when he said that they would take it easy. It’s hard to leave when you’re sort of frozen, and on some level she probably also didn’t want to make it more awkward and didn’t want to disappoint him. Even though he was already making it awkward as hell.

[lazermazer]

This is theonly opinion worth upvote, and shame it is

[lumos]

@lazermazer thanks, I feel angered by the people who don’t understand that consent isn’t a black and white yes/no issue.

[vishna]

It's a shame that his constructed image is so different from the real him. He's supposed to be a feminist and be the progressive soft guy and in reality he is dishonest is his intentions and pushy for his sexual desires with no regard for some women.

I feel for her, to be mislead and then have a fun night with someone you like go sour because all they want is sex, and sex right now.

She deserved to know his intentions and he did ignore several cues that she didn't want sex and to try and change her mind is so low and disgusting.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

How did he mislead? How did he not show regard? He didn't force her to do anything. Being pushy can be douchey but people are allowed to change their mind and people are allowed to try and change others minds.

[Sasha_Kotelenets]

@AllThatSweetJazz dude have you ever heard of "no means no?"

[AllThatSweetJazz]

@Sasha_Kotelenets She didn't say no. Plus if no becomes a yes and you decide to go through with it anyway then that overrules the first no -- that's changing your mind. Furthermore there is such a thing as a token no, which throws a wrench in the works.

[Astoriana]

What do you numpties have against “yes means yes”?

Are y’all so desperate that you’re satisfied having sex with literally anything that stays still long enough? Do you enjoy having sex with people who aren’t all that into it?

Cuz that’s what this really boils down to - y’all take the absence of a strong no as a green light, instead of taking the presence of a strong YES as a green light.

[Kaazsz]

I think here, the number one thing to prove is whether he understood the silent protest she talks about. Did he, or did he not? I do not believe he did. I really don't. I think women think men understand you. We don't! We don't have a clue. Things that make sense to you, from your perspective as a woman, make zero sense to us as men. I'm not angry. I'm not attacking you. I'm trying to understand better here. Because to me I see a confused man who doesn't know wtf happened. And I see you as a woman who understands what it's like to be a woman, but doesn't understand that men don't know you that well. Your comment says that he 100% knew what was going on, and pushed things because he's a bad creepy guy who takes advantage of women. Do you really believe that?

[pavlove]

@Kaazsz exactly man she might have thought she was clear but unless we hear no or stop or are pushed away a lot of guys don’t even know she really wants to stop

[Goodwifie]

I had a guy push himself onto me on our first and only date. He pinned me down on the grass after we had an evening picnic in a busy park. He tried to pull up my top. It had me so shocked that I didn't realize what was happening and then I started to struggle. A passerby overhead me and intervened.

[10dsw]

"Cuz that’s what this really boils down to - y’all take the absence of a strong no as a green light, instead of taking the presence of a strong YES as a green light." I see what you're saying but when men reach a certain age they realize that this is oftentimes the best strategy to finding sex and a relationship. "Do you enjoy having sex with people who aren’t all that into it?" 99% of guys don't care whether she's into it or not. They just love vagina. Normal human behaviour.

[lumos]

@Kaazsz this is not about ”ermagerd women are so difficult to understand, women are so mysterious, men can’t read minds”. This is about reading body language. Body language that humans have been practicing since the dawn of time. You don’t have to be a fucking psychologist to understand that when someone tries to move away from you multiple times when you’re making advances, it means that they’re not into it. She also said multiple times that she just wanted to wait or chill, yet two minutes later he was there again sticking his fingers down her throat. It’s not a silent protest, it’s a very fucking obvious protest but guys just refuse to see it because their dick getting wet is more important, and they’ll have sex with anything as long as it’s not kicking and screaming.

[Kaazsz]

@lumos I think you over estimate us men. Especially if you have experience with these evil overbearing sex crazed guys. Because I'm sorry, but like 99% of men aren't like that. 99% of men CANNOT DO THESE THINGS. Why? because we aren't players. Sure, call us horny pussy craved nutjobs. That's fine, we are. But you know what? When you act like the majority of men are out there pushing themselves on women, taking advantage of women, using you for your pussy, I call bullshit. I call a MAJOR bullshit. Most men are simply incapable of such things I think. You got scumbags, and you have non scumbags. That's that. So is Aziz a scumbag or not? Because I'm sorry, but men are fucking OBLIVIOUS to what you want! Dude are you serious? It hurts me right now because it can't be explained. Just look here on GAG. A million people asking "does this person like me?" The body language the actions all scream yes. Yet girls AND guys alike can't figure it out.

[Kaazsz]

@lumos And what you say about evolution, you're right we evolved to read body language. Unfortunately for many of us men, we don't know it when it comes to women. I was one of them for sure. I couldn't read women to save my life. Here is a story: I got naked with a girl once. She grasped my penis in her hands, positioned it at the entrance to her pussy, and waited for me to push it in. Guess what I did? Nothing. Because I feared that I was doing something wrong. Somehow she was thinking I should do something else, like tap her clit or something silly like that. Obviously she wanted me to fuck her and she eventually guided me through the whole process. But it took her doing EVERYTHING for me. Because I didn't know, i didn't fucking know. And I didn't know for a loooooong time. It's hard, It's so hard... But you don't believe me. You girls think us men know everything or something but we are clueless as fuck. Of course we pretend to know it all too cuz we're idiots.

[Kaazsz]

@lumos You know... like all this talk about men in general. I can't talk to you if you're talking about how men are these sick twisted dogs who are pushing the boundaries of rape in every way we can so we can get our dick wet! It's all we care about! You're framing this whole aziz thing off of that presumption, which is wrong. Maybe for the guys you date, maybe the guys most women want, sure, they are horny dogs. But you give them sex, you reinforce the lack of value they have for you. For the rest of us guys, we are just hoping someone would love us too. And that's the truth. Stop acting like every man is some horny pig out to get your pussy and dump you in a ditch! We aren't!

[Kaazsz]

@lumos All that said, I still don't know if Aziz is a bad guy or not. I think he's not. He looks like he was a nerdy loser who couldn't get laid. He mis read the situation. Or his fame got to his head, and he pushed things because he knows when you push women they can easily change their minds (don't ask me, ask women who give men advice on how to date and explain that being pushy is a good thing.) In any case, it seems like it doesn't matter. What really matters is whether men are all a bunch of horny rapists in training or not. Seems like you all believe we are. But from my perspective, women only want to date the rapists in training and leave the rest of the men alone, lonely and wondering why women don't want us, why women hate us, and why we are rapists despite being lonely virgins and shit lol. Of course there is a spectrum from virgin to fuckboy rapist, and all men exist somewhere in that spectrum.

[Astoriana]

@Kaazsz I call bullshit on you. This whole framing of men as incompetent bumblers fo get out of trouble needs to stop. Y’all know what you’re doing. Or you need to learn fast because “but I didn’t know you weren’t into it!!!” isn’t a good enough excuse. Fucking ask if you can’t tell. It’s not that hard. Also, bro, condense your thoughts and stop writing me a novel of complaining.

[Astoriana]

@10dsw forcing yourself onto someone who doesn’t want you is anything but normal.

[Dio1982]

It is quite simple. Nobody possess ESP. So how about you stop acting like a little spoilt child and start acting like an adult and start to take responsibility for your life? That includes clearly stating what you want/don't want. It is YOUR responsibility, and ONLY yours, to take care of yourself. Why do most women have such a big problems with communicating and taking on responsibility for themselves?

[Astoriana]

@Dio1982 taking responsibility also means understanding that not everyone wants to fuck you, and that they should ASK.

[lumos]

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 @Dio1982 don’t come on here talking about responsibility, when it’s the responsibility of EVERYONE who’s engaging in sexual intercourse to MAKE SURE that their partner is ok and that they want it, even though they haven’t flat out said no or stop. The lack of a no =/= a yes. I once asked a guy I was having sex with if he was ok because he wasn’t mentally there. We actually stopped because it gave him the opportunity to say ”actually no, let’s stop because I have too many things on my mind right now”. If you’re not ok with checking in on your partner then you shouldn’t be having sex in the first place. Simple as that.

[Dio1982]

@lumos Two things: Firstly, it is unfortunately still the man's job to initiate EVERYTHING. For this enormous privilege women have the responsibility to clearly say no when a man oversteps her expectations. Secondly, I have NEVER asked for consent for sex. And I never will, because I do not need to. And the secret is reciprocity. For example, if I kiss a woman, I expect her to kiss me back. If she doesn't, I won't continue escalting. If I start to undress her, I expect her to undress me. The same applies to touching, which needs to follow a series of escalating testing. If she doesn't touch me back, I know that she is not into me. Simple. The consent lies in her reciprocity. While Aziz behaved stupidly by skipping tests for reciprocity, equally she was stupid by giving mixed signals like following him to his flat, kissing and giving head.

[Astoriana]

@Dio1982 if you don't care to check in with your partner about whether they're enjoying the sex or whatever you're doing with them, you really ought to stay home with a bottle of lotion and a box of Kleenex.

[lord_chilled]

He just wrote an entire paragraph explaining how he is checking with his partner about wether she is enjoying it or not. Like , read the comment before you , before replying? And you got the nerve to give a reply like that. I swear, some of you women are delusional af and see something disagreeing someway slightly and all you see is red like a bull.

[lord_chilled]

One more thing, no guy literally asks permission for sex. Who does that? Like do you know how unsexy that is? "Wanna have sex?" Really? If she was wet before, its dry as a desert after that. Look, guys initiate sex. Unless women start doing that at the same rate that men do, its gonna keep on being this way. So of we are gonna be the initiators, you are gonna have to be the ones saying yes or no. Dont know how to do it? Take a class and learn. Its your responsibility. Its your own damn fault you know? You are the ones that want things to be spontaneous. You are the ones that need to be "in the mood" for it to happen. So , we gotta figure all that out on our own and if something messes up its our fault. And yet, despite ALL of that you can't even, at the very f'in least say yes or no? Are you as a gender just completely incompetent? A child, knows to say yes or no to most basic things, if you can't do that, whose fault is that?

[Kaazsz]

Are you a virgin? You don't ask for sex. You progressively move closer and closer towards sex through body language. It's not hard, and if you don't understand that then I just have to label y'all as nutjobs brainwashed by SJWs. Sex and intimacy is an animal instinct. Asking a woman if it's ok to have sex with her is in most cases going to turn her off. Unless she's a brainwashed SJW girl I suppose. Then again even then I bet she would be turned off but wouldn't see how her views don't match up to her sexuality. I've never asked for sex once in my life. I bet you think I'm a rapist now! lol. Come on, this whole thing is just silly at this point.

[Astoriana]

@Kaazsz you must be really bad at sex if you don’t even know how to use dirty talk @lordchilled I suspect you’re terrible in bed too

[lord_chilled]

Well, you will never get to find out. Lotion and kleenex is a thousand times better than a girl who will scream rape , just because she didn't like the way i did it. For the record, i gave up on the concept of hookups alltogether. Most of you , just have zero decision making skills, and never take responsibility for anything. I'd much prefer a girl that never does ons' and casual sex. They show responsibility, and with them this kind of bs is less lilely to happen.

[Astoriana]

@lord_chilled good. You are unsuitable as a partner in every way.

[Dio1982]

@Astoriana Lol. All women that had the pleasure to be sexual with me were exstatic about my abilities to please them. And that's because I communicate with them and because I have no problem being experimental, learning and being corrected when doing something wrong. You my dear are at the polar opposite of that spectrum. You refuse to communicate anything and believe that it is the man's job to have ESP capability and to guess what you are feeling and wanting at any instant in time; even into the future. You my dear are in other words a horrendously bad lay.

[Astoriana]

@Dio1982 and you’re basing this on... what, exactly? The fact that I believe communication and consent are integral to good sex?

[lord_chilled]

Thats rich, coming from the worst nightmare a guy could have as a partner

[Astoriana]

@lord_chilled aren’t you an incel?

[10dsw]

Who said anything about forcing? Though I've had a few hook ups with online women now and I will say that if I "asked" to have sex, I'd be mocked. There's literally no winning ffs, so might as well just "push"

[Astoriana]

@10dsw you must be really bad in bed if you don’t know how to use dirty talk.

[10dsw]

Well according to you everyone is bad in bed. Are you sure you're not the common denominator here? Idiot.

[Astoriana]

@10dsw if you don’t know how to communicate with your partner, you’re bad in bed. That shouldn’t be news.

[10dsw]

No lol I think you're the one who's bad in bed. Projection right? Also you sound terribly unpleasant to be around =P

[SanHoloz]

@Kaazsz I think it is true that men are not mindreaders and I think with so many various experiences intentional or unintentional the line seems to no longer be clear when it comes to smaller things. The thing about the Aziz case is that she said to slow down and chill for a second and then he put his fingers in her mouth which is the opposite of what she communicated. Things like that are the problem. I disagree with one point you made (also so sorry just realized how long this thread has been happening) where men are not capable of those things but that is not true. Maybe you are not so you haven't been in that situation, that is not what we are referring to. Things like touching girls asses at the club or saying perverted comments are not okay. Men (btw when I say this I do not mean every single man, I mean the ones that are the problem) will do shit like hold on to a hug too long (you know what I mean not just a normal hug, you can feel it shit to uncomfortable), and

[SanHoloz]

they will let their hand wander too low or even in a fucking handshake I have had a man sit there and use his finger to stroke my wrist, which is not normal for anyone to do. I have had men I was dating grab me roughly to the point of it being uncomfortable because it feels like i am a doll, its forcing control but they say they are being affectionate or sexual and I am being sensitive when no there IS a difference. after a night of drinking I have slept in the bed with a platonic male friend of 5 years because there was no where else to sleep and he put his hand down my pants and another guy in a room full of people sleeping everywhere once tried to reach around the covers to do the same bc apparently sleeping in the bed with them meant I was giving them the green signal. This is MUCH different than when a partner initiates sex. Though again I've had one slap me in the face in the middle of rough sex without discussing if I was into that and he insisted he thought I'd like it.

[SanHoloz]

There are so many things that men will do and claim we should communicate better but considering the just how many women have experienced these things of varying degrees, then it shows you there is a problem. I also want to say that saying no when it happens should be a very easy thing, I have been taught to do that since I was born BUT when in the situation it is not that simply. I know for some it is and it probably doesn't make sense as it doesn't to me either but I have frozen and it was like I was so surprised by the action I was suddenly afraid of what to do and how they'd react, if I'd done something to make it happen, etc. Even in the examples I have about sleeping in the same bed, with the friend I rolled over so my back was to him and he stopped but his hand had already been down my underwear. It took me an hour to work up the nerve to get out of the bed and leave. Why? I have no clue but this happens to SO many women

[10dsw]

@SanHoloz You slept in the same bed with a man and you didn't expect him to touch you? I mean are you fucking 12? No shit he thought you were giving him the green light... 99.999% of men would think that. No sane woman would share a bed with a man she considered a friend. This is literally your own stupidity so stop blaming others for your f&%^ing mistakes!

[SanHoloz]

@10dsw And that right there is the problem. The ONLY thing I did was sleeping in the same bed because there was nowhere else for me to sleep. That does NOT mean I want to have sex with him. I made no other indication no advances nor give any other signals, hell I was on the edge of the bed. I have other guys who are friends that slept in the same bed that was 10x smaller and they did not make a move and assume sex because they are not fucking idiots. It is literally a place to sleep. But you did prove the point about not paying attention to body language and circumstance. Men are not idiots, women share beds and men do too when necessary and things go just fine same with men and women, but then there is the percentage that do not seem to grasp a fucking basic concept and THOSE aka YOU are the ones we are talking about. You should know how to read a situation, other men can so i'm confused at how you can't.

[10dsw]

@SanHoloz "But you did prove the point about not paying attention to body language and circumstance." Body language and circumstance... lol. The circumstance that a woman is getting into a bed with a man? Where you know... mature adults have... you know... sex? Here, let's put it this way: would you go into a brothel because it's raining outside and then complain that a guy wants to fuck you?

[SanHoloz]

@10dsw I dont even know how to reason with you. Not even gonna try with the brothel example. Not every circumstance where sex could potentially happen means that sex should be expected to happen. You are essentially saying if anyone shares a bed ever regardless of their relationship sex should be expected and assumed and to think other wise is unfathomable. Do you not realize how absurd that is. If a female needs to crash at your place and you share a bed as the other option is making her sleep on the floor and she shows no initiative no signs and has her back to you trying to fall asleep you are still going to stick your hand down her pants? How does that make any sense whatsoever? I truly cannot grasp this. Even if sex is in your head you are ASSUMING its in hers & acting based on that assumption, that is the problem. Even if she is your girlfriend, she doesn't have to fuck you if you sleep in the same bed. This is so fucking simple. I dont touch men based on assumption its not hard

[10dsw]

@SanHoloz You're right. But 99% of the time, if a girl asks "can I get in bed with you", a rational (NORMAL HETEROSEXUAL) male will assume she wants sex. Male/female friends don't "just share beds" - it doesn't happen. Let me repeat: it doesn't happen! And any female who has half a brain realizes this. I'm going to stop arguing with you because I sort of feel you're like at a 12 year old's sexual maturity level. Serious.

[Astoriana]

@10dsw you have a really low opinion of men, don’t you? To you, men are irrational and illogical beasts, who care only about getting their dicks wet. If anyone is a misandrist here, it’s you. I’m bored of you. Goodbye.

[SanHoloz]

@10dsw It does happen. The thing is is that the problem is that men will make this assumption based on one thing. You said that i was right in my last post but yet still think it is on the woman rather than admitting that the problem is in the male mentality which is not 99.9% of the time or men. Men are not idiots. Yes somethings can be lost in translation between two people or communication could be off so that is one thing but you are arguing that men are justified in assuming something based on nothing. It is not me with the immature approach to sex. Regardless of how skewed I believe your perspective to be the fact remains that even if you up to this point believe one thing to be a sign as another, WOMEN are telling you how WE view it in order to stop this shit from happening. This is where men recognize what we are saying and move forward without making the same assumptions, not argue that all these women are wrong. That is the problem.

[Investigator]

My primary issue is that we're getting to the point in the conversation where the distinction between what is and is not considered consent gets so blurry that no act of agreement, verbal or otherwise, is sufficient to avoid the accusation of rape. This is partly thanks to feminism forcing every social interaction through the ideological lens of "Oppression Olympics" and power dynamics. I see it social media all the time, "it was clearly rape because he is in a position of power over her and she clearly could not escape or didn't want to risk provocation, without putting her career at stake". But, really, you could put any other "-ism" in for rape, and the outcome would be the same. "it was clearly racism because the guy was Indian and the girl didn't want to risk being labeled a racist for not sleeping with him..."

Here's a good question: what could Aziz have done to avoid coming across as a predator or rapist, apart from simply not asking for sex? If it was any other guy, would the outcome or level of accusation have been the same?

[Gypsy_x]

I don't think people are accusing him of rape, just impropriety.

[Investigator]

@Gypsy_x Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's being accused of rape, or more accurately, sexual assault. Rape, impropriety, pick your verbiage, it's all the same in the public eye. He is a celebrity so, no matter what happens, it's high-profile and has implications for all men everywhere. I mean, why else would people be raising this issue under the #MeToo banner?

[Gypsy_x]

I don't think people are suggesting his behaviour was illegal though, just morally wrong. Its relevant to the #MeToo banner because women are discussing what sexual practices make them uncomfortable.

[Investigator]

@Gypsy_x That's kind of a problem, don't you think? If all that is required for a woman to be raped is for her to *feel* raped, not actually *be* raped, then isn't all sex rape until proven otherwise? Because really, the only difference between the two--at least where this discussion is concerned--is the woman's emotional state at any given point. While emotions are relevant to sex, we're turning them into the evidence required to determine boundary and violation. Negative feelings = I was raped, rather that forceful coercion or just slight hostility = I was raped. If this is the low bar we're setting for what constitutes rape, it won't be long before just the man's presence in a way she doesn't fancy could be considered assault or coercion. While this might be a slippery slope fallacy, as I said before, it's getting harder and harder these days to determine what is and is not consent.

[Gypsy_x]

Thats the thing - its not rape. Noone rational is saying it's rape. The conversation is about what behaviour is appropriate and what is not. What should come of this is that men and women should not engage in sexual relations with anyone who isn't 100% keen and into it.

[cheesesteak7]

I don't think Aziz did anything "wrong", per se.

However, I've always thought he was a phony douche and this somewhat confirms it. Dude tries to be intellectual, progressive, etc, but he's just an unfunny, generic tool behind the curtains.

[Curmudgeon]

Another Commiewood Leftist jackoff gets caught up in the snares of his own sanctimonious dishonesty. I'm popping corn.

[Curmudgeon]

And he is lucky he is not a college student:

reason.com/.../if-aziz-ansari-were-a-college-student-he

[azzntittiz]

I don't know what the claims are, but he did it. I just look at him and know he did it. Burn him at the stake!!!

[GiovanniGentile]

Glad that there is a voice of reason in the comments

[GiovanniGentile]

@uglyindianretard Ugly Indian and Retarded? Aziz is that you?

[Hypnos0929]

lol, my coworker said the same

[azzntittiz]

@GiovanniGentile Always a pleasure, I do my part in saving the world from whatever.

[widdershins_]

Aziz is handsome, successful, and funny. I'm sure he could have had several options for a casual hookup. It's really unfortunate that he took advantage of someone who may have genuinely cared for him as a person and not just his money/fame. From the way you described her, it sounds like she was trying to defend his character, even while expressing the pain he caused her.

I hope guys learn from this. I know a number of girls who are open to casual, no strings attached, sex. I wish guys would stop turning genuine girls into the exact jaded, "harpies" they love to wine about.

[raspberry0416]

I think people overestimate how much celebrity men can get away with. Sure, they are rich and often attractive, but women are still women and don't like to be used or violated. The men themselves think they are god and that the women must want them, but in reality the women are turned off by the douchey behavior.

[azzntittiz]

Oh no, not handsome haha.

[slatyb]

She hit on him hard at a party.

[widdershins_]

@raspberryo416 I don't know the details of the story. I'm responding to the Take authors point of view and agreeing that men should have a healthy amount of respect for other people's time and feelings. Especially women when it comes to sex and objectification. I'm not sure what you're ranting on my comment about. by the way, if you find him unnatractive then good for you. I'm just as entitled to my own opinions and I wish you'd afford me the same respect I'm advocating for for you as a fellow human being.

[Poppykate]

OMG! I just laugh at the dinner part. He must think she is cheap ass!

[Kaazsz]

This whole thing is giving me new perspective. I don't think aziz did anything wrong whatsoever. he's been chastized for not understanding a woman on a deep level. Sorry ladies, we are not women, we don't know what you're thinking. I think it's BS that women are saying he is a sexual predator. That's not true. That's women, not realizing, that men are not gods of sex, we don't all understand you like a computer. Her "non verbal protest" was probably invisible to him. He had no idea. I think it's bullshit that women are attacking him and using this situation as a "learning tool" for men. What are we supposed to learn? That you as a woman can decide at any time to turn me into a vicious sex offender? That's bullshit! I know if I had the same situation I wouldn't be able to read her mind either.

[Kaazsz]

And I think OP your whole theory is just crazy. The "typical man" doesn't know shit about women, is awkward around the girl he likes, gets nervous around pretty girls. The "typical man" is not some fucking playboy fuckboy out there having sex with a new woman every night! That's an extremely tiny amount of men. And we all know women love those men, because they keep fucking them. Don't blame all of men for what a very small group of players and fuckboys do. Is aziz a player fuckboy? I doubt it. He's just a famous guy who is using his chance to get good looking women to have sex with him. Fame. It brings women, it doesn't bring player skills. It doesn't turn him into this sex monster manipulating women and abusing them for sex. That's bullshit. It's all bullshit.

[Kaazsz]

And don't tell MEN to change their ways. Tell fuckboys to change their ways. No, you know what? Tell WOMEN to change their ways. Stop fucking players, stop fucking fuckboys. If your psychology is going to be broken because some players fucked you and that's it, that's your fault! Most men are not players! It's complete horse shit this idea that all men are out there scheming and plotting ways to get pussy. Like it's just crazy as fuck to me that people think this is the normal thing that happens. It's not normal to have one nights stands. It's not normal to go home with different girls every night. Most men can't do that! Sure I dream of being a player who just gets beautiful women easy as pie. But that's not my reality and it's not most mens reality. We aren't this mass of fucked up perverts looking to fuck women and leave them on the side of the road. Most of us want a relationship, most of us want someone to love. Fuck all this bullshit. It's BS!

[pavlove]

Yes you may want love but cmon there aren’t some girls you wouldn’t mind plowing but wouldn’t want to actually dare or take seriously?

[Kaazsz]

I've been used for sex. I haven't used anyone for sex. I would love to take attractive girls home and plow them till the morning. But it doesn't work like that. And if it did, it would be mutual. When it happened to me, I wanted a relationship. Otherwise, I don't even have the ability to "take a girl home to plow." I'm not a fucking player dude, are you? How many guys are players like that? Plenty of people are running around fucking eachother with no strings attached. Men and women, and women love this shit, don't pretend like they don't. The issue at hand is whether men are horny dogs, pushing the boundaries of sex, and pushing women into doing shit they don't want to do. That's not true. Maybe for the players, I'll believe it. But for the majority of men? I don't believe that.

[Hyped_up_on_coffee]

He is a douche and she didn’t have the courage to stand up for herself. And sometimes it’s hard to say no sometimes but another issue is that older movies teach men predatory behaviors in which “no” is just being hard to get and they try harder until it becomes a “yes” ... and that gives the situation a gray are.

[samhradh_leannan]

Both of these are legitimate issues. Sometimes men don’t take no for an answer. Sometimes women don’t know how to stand up for themselves or they feel like they will be hurt if they say no (e. g. lose their job). However, based on what I’ve read, that’s not what happened here. Did she ever actually say no? Having regrets for agreeing to have sex when you didn’t feel totally comfortable is not the same thing as being raped/assaulted. People aren’t mind readers.

[ManwithaConran]

@samhradh_leannan The original article is pretty clear on the fact she never said no. And that she only voiced her concerns after leaving his flat. Another question... if she felt she was attacked why blog it online months afterwards , instead of reporting it to the police...

[samhradh_leannan]

@ManwithaConran There are extenuating circumstances where something can be rape, assault, or harassment without the victim actually saying no. But this does not seem like one of those times.

[NJ_Casanova]

He's getting bad publicity... didn't do anything wrong.

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't know. Whenever the discussion moves from obvious sexual assault to what people should have said or communicated when they meet, have sex, etc. I am just out of it.

I don't even know what to say.

I just find it weird people are actually commenting on the ritual they used in courting. Like there is some handbook or guidelines for what to say and how to transition from having dinner to going back to the apartment, and getting naked. . .

It's like. . . no one thinks this is weird?

[pavlove]

lol it is but its part of society and culture and at least in america 2018 it seems like trying to convince a woman to be sexual when she expresses an interest in taking it slow is unacceptable. I say the solution is to either accept her offer to take it slow or say that you're not interested in taking it slow and just have her go home. Of course, a lot of this can be screened out by simply stating what you're looking for from them and letting them make their choice ahead of time thus not wasting your time or there's.

[RolandCuthbert]

Right, to me that's too far. I caution young men. . . that if you have gotten to a point where a woman is trying to negotiate this part of intimacy, just get up and go home anyway. Keep women who don't know if they want to have sex at arm's length. That is a very, very immature irresponsible person. And right now, she has the opportunity to wield a lot of power over your future. Do not put yourself in that position. If I were a young guy today, I would really be careful about getting drunk with women and courting women who do not seem very mature.

[MlleCake]

I agree with you Roland - yes, have the discussion where you both try to talk about what you want, the negotiation is fine BUT - if you are with a woman who just can't express what she is and isn't ok with, and you're not sure what to do - DO NOTHING. Stop being sexual with a woman who can't figure out what is and isn't ok with her. Not that it is easy in a sex-shaming society to believe a man actually wants to hear what you like (it gets asked so infrequently we may not really know how to answer.) But ultimately, even if it's a bummer in the moment, if the two people can't figure what they both agree on, they both need to go back to watching Netflix with their hands folded in their laps. Can't figure it out? Then don't proceed - for all people of all genders. As we talk more about enthusiastic consent, this really is not just a question of what men do to women. A lot of women have had to realize they aren't always getting enthusiastic consent either.

[RolandCuthbert]

@MlleCake Right. It is funny. Actually it is very sexist to assume that women are the only ones unsure when it comes to having sex or that every woman would have problems figuring this out. I have been in the situation a few times myself. And you don't want to make the woman feel bad. Sometimes I have gone through with it. Other times I have just plain said flat out "No". And that women became very upset. But I didn't go to the newspapers with my story or anything. I just figured it was all apart of dating and finding someone you are compatible with. Yeah, I would hate to be a young guy out there today trying to find love. It has gotten exponentially harder to court or date. Even if you are just out to have some fun.

[MlleCake]

I can't say that I have never found it a bummer to have a guy refuse sex. I might not appear overjoyed with it, but I deal. Just like guys have to deal. Unfortunately, most women know how it can be the be physically intimidated, coerced or threatened for saying NO, or just not going along with things exactly as the man has it pictured in our head. As we're getting better at saying no and yes, our male counterparts also need to do the same. And we all have to do a better job of asking first. I don't want to say it's harder for people to date and court now, just that we have millennia of messages telling women to submit and men to expect them to submit and we're still working out the details of how not to do that as a society. That's the hard part. But seeking and getting consent itself is not hard, you just have to be committed to it.

[RolandCuthbert]

@MlleCake Well, I can only talk about the women I have been with. I mean, I have faked orgasms, the whole nine. Because to some women it is important that they feel sexy. Others, I just couldn't go through with it. So It told them and they freaked out or became upset. But I just figured it was part of the deal. They felt like I lead them on. I don't think I did, but I can see how they could have interpreted things the wrong way. As for sexual assault that is a totally different thing. I have never had a woman force herself upon me. But being upset over a misunderstanding is commonplace. And I feel like younger men need to be extra, extra careful. I work in environments where young folks, sex, and alcohol are just commonplace. That is just a bad combination. Sooner or later one of the guys is going to to go jail.

[MlleCake]

Oh, you're right on that. The alcohol is such a huge factor.

[ThisDudeHere]

Excepf for many men revealing their intentions early on will completely diminish their chances of getting laid. This is just a case of the ends justifying the means.

This whole issue is about how women want ment to only abide by their preferred methods, completely ignoring the fact that men have entirely different needs and different methods of achieving those.

Someone will say, "just be honest in the beginning and find a woman who also just wants sex," but there's a problem with that - proportionally more men want only sex, as opposed to women. You can't have men express their desires and also get what they want nearly as often as they'd want to.

[pavlove]

You’re still justifying manipulating someone’s desire for romance for your desire for sex. I totally get where you’re coming from I do but would you want some girl to talk about like you like this? And proportionally a lot of guys meet girls thRough mutual friends or events where they both know people so her shit talking could affect you. That’s always been women’s main source of power is the ability to garner sympathy and support more than men. If your a cool funny attractive guy there will be women out there who want to mess around or maybe hope they can change you after sex. Worst case you may have to accept you need to give up hooking up as much

[ThisDudeHere]

I'm not exactly saying that I support what he did - I wouldn't do it myself, I think, but I guess my point is that instead of somehow forcing men to just not want to get laid at any cost (barring rape, ofc), women should just adapt to the fact that there are such inconsiderate guys around. Telling people llke Aziz to just either reveal their intentions or go the woman's prefered long route will not solve the issue as they will still ignore either option in favour of getting laid. And giving up hooking up is like giving up getting tasty food - you will never be able to convince anyone to do that so instead it should be the other side that should adapt.

[Lightspeed-Lemon]

So he's guilty of being a "typical guy" and for that deserves to lose his career? By that reckoning, most men in the world should lose their careers, including you probably.

Yes, this was comparable to revenge porn. The goal was public humiliation and embarrassment. If she only wanted to teach guys something about dating, she could have done it anonymously: "I dated a male celebrity we'll call 'Alan' and here's what happened..." Instead she names him without naming herself, and goes into unnecessary detail about his sexual proclivities. (This was AFTER he already apologized to her.) If a man ever "outed" a woman in this way, it would be roundly condemned as slut-shaming. In Aziz's response, he should have named this woman so others could avoid her in the future.

[pavlove]

Someone has to pay the price so us other men takw them seriously I guess...