Sexual Relationships 
Sexual Health 
Waiting until marriage to have sex is a very old tradition and expectation that has been with us for most of civilized human history. Written human history only goes back about 6,000-8,000 years, based on current knowledge, but we have anthropological records going back much further. Clearly, the concept existed for good reasons to have lasted so long - so why is this concept suddenly obsolete?
We can’t understand the rationale behind this rule without historical context, so, let’s take a look at how it came to be.
At first, humans and pre-humans were nothing more than exceptionally smart animals, but eventually, we developed communication, which lead to organization and relative stability of life, which we call Civilization. You can’t have civilization without a widely-recognized set of rules, and in the beginning, the things that mattered were the very basics: survival, shelter, sustenance, and reproduction. All of those things were organized and had guidelines established, and subsequently refined, to help civilization run smoothly.
Among the first things to be given rules were issues regarding power and leadership - key issues for stability. Clan names evolved into “house” or “family” names, and titles, positions, possessions, and incomes were passed down through generations (which were often quite short, when the average lifespan was in the late 30s or early 40s). Further rules about inheritance were created to ensure that a clear line of succession was understood by everyone - the better to prevent a war every time a leader died and a successor had to be named.
Marriage, especially among the upper (leadership) class, became very important to civilization, not only for the passing of titles and holdings but also as a political tool to create unions between former enemies or reluctant allies. If you’re a fan of Game Of Thrones, or the books the show was based on, you’ll be very familiar with all of these issues - and the author borrowed heavily from actual European history for those concepts.
This leads us to one more critical piece of the puzzle: whether or not a child was “legitimate”, meaning the child of an officially (and often religiously-recognized) married couple, or if that child was “illegitimate” (aka a bastard), meaning the biological parents were not legally wed. Historically, this is a very important distinction, because illegitimate children *could not inherit*; only legitimate children were allowed to take the family/house/clan name, and titles and possessions generally passed to the eldest (legitimate) son. The reason this was so important to civilization was because, when the rules were not followed, the result was often war, with the attendant loss of thousands (or tens or hundreds of thousands) of innocent lives.
Before modern times, having sex inevitably led to pregnancies and children, so rules had to be created to ensure that those children - especially those of the upper (ruling) classes - were legitimate. This was accomplished in a simple, practical way: marriage - marriages that took place not long after the onset of puberty and the natural, biologically-driven start of sexual desire.
More simply, girls were considered to be “women” by 12 or 13, and boys considered men by 15 or 16, and marriages started taking place once these ages were reached. In fact, the *average* marriage age for women prior to the 1600s was about 14, and since the 1600s was about 15, while men’s average marriage age was about 16. Keep in mind that these are averages, and that is was not at all unusual or remarkable for women to be married at 12 or 13, and men at 14 or 15.
Today, these ages seem extremely young, but it is important to realize that WE are the weird ones - biologically, those ages are and were much more reasonable and practical. It meant that men had a wife during his peak sexual years (roughly 16-25), and it meant that women had a husband during her peak fertility years (roughly 15-30), which meant that the odds of that couple successfully reproducing and having children that survived into adulthood to reproduce themselves was maximized. Infant mortality was often 30-40%, and even the children who survived to 5 years of age were still likely to die prior to reproductive age about 35% of the time, due to disease, hunger, or violence. It also meant that the children that resulted from these marriages would be legitimate, and could inherit the family name, titles, and possessions.
All of this continued for thousands of years, until the first minor adjustments happened in the late 1800s as part of the Industrial Revolution. The Industrial Revolution resulted in the need for greater levels of education of workers, who were needed for more complex jobs, and this in turn increased the importance of education across the developed world. The first public schools were opened, and education became less of a paid privilege and more of an expectation.
The big change, though, came as a result of World War II. WWII greatly accelerated not just the industrialization of the world, but also advanced technology at an incredible rate. Massive medical breakthroughs were made as well; for example, the first antibiotics. And when the war ended and the world looked to the US for help rebuilding Europe, Japan, and other places that had been destroyed in the war, the US transitioned wartime technology advancements into the civilian sectors. By the 1960s, the fruits of this work, also fueled by the Cold War and the Space Race, were beginning to make huge changes to society.
Industrial and factory work was the beginning of a trend where workers needed to be educated, and as time went on, and as technology enabled many diverse careers, the minimum level of education needed by those workers continued to increase.
The impact on women was especially dramatic. Many of these new jobs no longer required brute strength or physical endurance like factory work or farming, but they did require education, so women began to not only finish high school (prior to WWII, 8th Grade educations were the standard), but many began to go to college - something previously unheard of outside of the wealthy or the exceptionally gifted. And armed with their new educations, these women (as a whole) went to work outside the home, by choice, for the first time.
Women were also able to manage their reproduction for the first time, with new access to the Birth Control Pill and other birth control methods, and to legal abortions. Feminism fought for equality in the workplace and the right to choose a career instead of being a mother and housewife by default.
All of this saw the marriage age start to increase for the first time starting in the late 1960s, moving from the historical average age of 15 through the later teens, and into the early 20s in the 1970s, and continuing a rapid rise through the early 1990s when the average marriage age hit 30 - and that number is still increasing today.
What’s important to remember, though, is that this is VERY RECENT change, and even though many reading this will have never known anything else, from a human biology perspective, this is very massive and very rapid change - far faster than biology can accommodate. Scientists estimate that it takes about 1000 generations - or 20,000 years - before human biology will show significant change, and it’s barely been 60 years. That is rapid change!
But our parents are still teaching us the values that their parents taught them, and their parents did the same, etc. And 3 or 4 generations ago, those values and expectations made perfect sense - when women married at 14, 15, or 16, and men at 16, 17, and 18 - waiting for marriage for sex was realistic and reasonable - it aligned with human biology.
Today, with the average female marriage age in western society being 32(!), obviously that expectation (to wait for marriage to have sex) is not at all in line with human biology, and it isn’t reasonable or practical. Things have changed - massively and quickly - and our parents and grandparents haven’t updated the values and expectations they’ve been teaching to reflect those changes - which naturally causes a lot of confusion and emotional uncertainty, because the way we feel, and the way everyone acts today, doesn’t reflect what we were taught to expect. 60 years ago, and virtually any time before that, those expectations matched up well with society, but they don’t anymore, and people who still teach those outdated expectations are doing everyone a disservice. That doesn’t mean that values aren’t important, but it means that we all must be aware of the breadth and depth and speed of the chances in society after WWII, and realize that we must create new rules to live by - rules that reflect *today’s* society, and not the one our grandparents and great-grandparents lived in; a society that is long gone.
It makes absolutely no sense to waste a decade or more of time that your body is naturally supposed to be sexually active in - and in fact when reproduction is at its most optimal and safe - just because you aren’t married. It goes against nature and biology, and against emotional, spiritual, and mental health. Yes, we have to make adjustments, but at least let’s be aware that the old rules are obsolete and impractical (and WHY), and be okay making new, sensible rules for ourselves that work for us and society as it is today.
What Girls & Guys Said
21 24TLDR.
My take though... some want to wait for religious reasons and so they should. And they should find someone that shares that belief or feeling. I'll never fault anyone that wants this.
Failing that, all bets are off. :)
I'm not waiting cause of religion or morals or anything. But instead of explaining it, I'll let the immortal words of Kanye speak for me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vwNcNOTVzYSay what you want about the dude, but he spit real talk
I dont know whats the big deal about sex that some people wanna rush. Its always better with someone you love so I can understand when people want to wait.
I'm not talking about "rushing" here. No one is suggesting sex on the first date or anything. But the opposite extreme is equally impractical. I'm suggesting instead that there is a viable and reasonable middle ground - having sex without marriage after a period of dating and vetting.
Some good points there, your right. People in the past only waited because they were married within a year and marraige was a man committing himself to the care of a woman. I think that's why heavy petting became so popular.
My wife waited for marraige and im glad she did.
I believe sex after marriage is a matter of preference, and it may not make sense to you because you wouldn't do it, but to other's, they'd rather wait and do it with someone they are comfortable with. Also, take into consideration that not everyone is sexually active at the same time. Plus, asexuality is a thing... just saying.
Also, I see people talking about divorce in the comments when they are only talking about the American divorce rate. The divorce rate in other countries isn't as high.
i agree with you that it is a waste in a way but i also don't believe it makes sense to use those years to have recreational sex.
i'm no feminist but it really pisses me off to see all these young men just wanting to relieve there urges but not wanting to accept the other half of it, producing and caring for children. they want to run away from that part, have their cake and eat it too again and again and again. there's a reason why sex feels good.
You're right I fit your description but why to have children when I have issues on my own?
Humans are animals and animals have been screwing long before marriage was invented. Marriage is stupid as a concept anyway.
Good myTake.
I'm pretty sure you were engaged for a while, Krieger...
40.media.tumblr.com/.../...4dvUOe1rravnjo4_500.jpg
LOL.
But we were screwing and watching Tentacle porn before we got married.
Point taken.
@MrOracle that so funny
@John_Doesnt "Marriage is stupid as a concept anyway." Then why did you libs ram same sex marriage down our throats?
@I-am-a-nobody because of the first amendment that says congress shall make no laws with respect to a retarded religion like conservatives Christianity.
@John_Doesnt Hey John, I know using phrases like "retarded religion" is a typical atheist's MO, but it really has no place here. Again, you're right that CONGRESS shall make no law... But marriage laws are STATE laws, so the courts have no say in them. Note that anyone of any sexual orientation could marry someone of the opposite sex in all 50 states of the union. So we had equal protection under the law.
@I-am-a-nobody which is why federal judges ruled that everybody can get married. You lost.
Interesting take.
Looonng story short... waiting for marriage to have sex is not supposed to work.
1. Men and women are encouraged to go to college, sleep around for fun, focus on their careers, then get married way later. Everyone seems to think getting married at 21 is insanity.
2. Why would girls commit to one guy when they're encouraged to sleep with the best looking guys who will bang them, until they decide to settle down? (Ask Sheryl Sandburg). Which also means that the guys are encouraged to not settle--because if you can do good, you can do great, why commit?
3. Marriage isn't serious. It's been reduced to a pointless legal contract. It offers men nothing, and women are encouraged to break it on a whim.
I agree with third
@independentman i second this agreement. Lets not forget that most of them are the ones that FORCE the marriage anyway, talking about shit like "growing up" when it comes to that issue or kids. Wanting to marry early is not a good idea anymore and is part insanity now. Too many fucking splitting factors. Women pat themselves on the back saying they "mature" faster than men just because they want to get married and have kids early, but if you cut through all the fluff, you will see that it only stems from those stupid fairy tale books they read when young, playing dolls and "house", and their innate need to feel important. Because maturity would be to prepare first... Many of them only want that rock, dress and wedding day anyway. a good percentage of young girls dont even know what marriage comes with. If you say marriage, most think wedding day. mature faster my ass... Sad part is society encourages this stupidity. Two ways: Child Support Alimony
honestly it just isn't worth it anymore, i once dated a girl who waited till wait for sex till we got married. but her family controlled our everyday lives and break us up she then fucked the very next guy she dated and didn't even try fighting for me. funny thing was i treat her better then any guy she ever day and been through for her through every holday, while all the other guys she dated never even got her a birthday gift, out of 10 guys i was the poorest one so thats just sad. as for current boyfriend she use to bitch about how badly he treated her yet she stiill with her 3 years later.
I disagree, virgin wife's are the least likely to divorce you and report happier marriages.
Statistics please
@Wwwyzzerdd go to YouTube and type in the truth about sex by Stefan Molyneux. the sources are in the description box.
Youtube is not a statistic. Stephen Molyneux is incredibly biased, not a credible source. I like to deal in facts, not personal op-ed being passed off as opinifact
@Wwwyzzerdd "Youtube is not a statistic." I already answered this. "Stephen Molyneux is incredibly biased" no he is not, he is a empiricist. "not a credible source" again I responded to this. why u do dis? "I like to deal in facts, not personal op-ed being passed off as opinifact" Great!! if you're in empiricist like me and stef then you will enlighten yourself to watch the video and read THE SOURCES in the description box and you will easily conclude conservative values is best when it comes to sex.
you want facts... look at today's divorce rates.
I agree with what you say except that it doesn't make sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3NDeyR_1-UPlenty of surveys have shown that sex (especially in a very young age) out of marriage does more harm than good to society as a whole and to the individual, mostly women.
Std infections are more frequent and so are unwanted pregnancies, women are psychologically ruined become either sluts who change their partners like socks and let their ovaries dry out by living a depressed childless life or they will be forced to marry the father of their child and most likely get divorced forcing the man to work and pay for both her and the child that grows up without a father. The effects on society are more negative than positive.
cdn.freedomainradio.com/...iage_Partners_Study.pdf
www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr48/nvs48_16.pdf
www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_01.pdf
What feminism did was not give equal rights to women. It was to turn women into inferior men. Every feminist manifesto says that the goal was the destruction of traditional family as a means to destroy Western civilisation. Something I have summed up in my article:
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a28234-explaining-cultural-marxism-what-your-school-will-never-tell-you
At the same time they attack masculinity, promote fagotry and childless life and women who are married with children are encouraged to get divorced and raise another generation of castrated beta males. The ones who shall replace weak western men are the masculne, sexist Afroasians invading Europe on a daily basis. And feminists show all the time how much they love those men.
Nice one. by the way because i see lots of girls bitching about, waiting for marriage and waiting until you are sure you know the person before sex are 2 different things...
it still makes sense for me
I'm for sex after marriage. But let people do what they wanna do. I don't care.
I was raised to wait for marriage and that was my plan, until my then-boyfriend carefully, gently seduced me on my 25th birthday. He was considerate, didn't try to move too fast, and his gentle persistence paid off. I started to say no and it came out "OK." So we did it.
It was just about as good as a girl's first time can be. I have no regrets.
well God still says to wait until marriage so... And half of people in America have STI's?
Then fight for the rights for 13 year old to get married and you won't have to worry about it.
Also, divorce is made much easier today than ever. Make divorce laws tougher and people won't marry as soon.
I disagree with this concept , but I loved and saved the take its soo well put and organised and topics are well put up
Thanks. I agree. I didn't.
I think it's worth it to wait
Until your 30s? And miss your primary reproductive window entirely? And his sexual peak years entirely? And risk waiting all that time to possibly find out you're sexually incompatible? I just don't get how it's "worth it." It's a tiny bit of potential "plus" next to a huge column of "minuses."
MrOracle, does it really matter if you miss your reproductive window if you just going to wear a condom or take a pill? I mean waiting until your 40 will lower your chances but wearing a condom or taking a pill will make it very rare and you will have a better chance at just waiting. The point of missing your reproductive window is stupid if your going to wear a condom or take a pill because that makes it slim to none of making babies (which is the point of sex and reproduction).
@CS_Guy I'm suggesting that women who want children should prioritize having them when they're young - when it's biologically healthiest and safest to have children - even if it's at the expense of early career advancement. That probably also means marrying younger. For those who don't want children and/or want to focus on their career, that doesn't require sexless relationships or being single. Birth control is extremely effective. More to the point, though, is that the MORAL and SOCIAL rules of women not having sex until marriage are obsolete in modern society, even though as little as 60 years ago, they made sense. Most folks are too young to have experienced the "old way" and don't realize they're following obsolete rules for no good reason other than that's what they were taught.
Why? You seek sexual gratiication too, not being pleased can turn the marriage bad.. Is because your restrictive and relgious parents?