Sexual Relationships 
Sexual Health 
Argument for: A woman doesn’t want to have a baby. She is allowed to abort it without the fathers permission to do so. If she goes through with it however, and the father doesn’t want it, he is forced to pay child support. The argument for child support is that they both have the responsibility of the child they have brought up, and therefore he is responsible to pay if he leaves that other responsibility by not staying with the child. But a woman is allowed to leave her responsibility of caring for the baby yet not born. They both have equal responsibility, and it is illogical, and therefore men should have a say in abortion.
Argument against: A woman should determine whether she wants an abortion or not. It is her body, and she is the one who will go through labor, and birth, not the man. He doesn’t understand, or know what she is going through. She has the right to her own body, as we have until the day we die, and after that. A man cannot force a women to bear an unwanted child. Therefore a man should not have a say if he doesn’t want an abortion.
What Girls & Guys Said
42 78I think the woman should have the ultimate decision when it comes to abortion, but the man should have the option to financially abort and not have to be responsible for the child. Then if the woman doesn't feel like she can bare the burden alone she could always put the child up for adoption.
This way neither party is forced to be financially responsible for a child they don't want. They both have a choice.
I don't see how your solution of waiving financial responsibility for either party is really amicable? You're essentially saying, "Let's not punish the parties involved, whose careless behaviour led to the conception of an unwanted child; we can just let the taxpayers, or some other hapless person pick up the tab." It'd be like waiving financial responsibilities for parties of motor vehicle "accidents"; no driver should have to pay for the damage they cause by getting behind the wheel drunk, or driving recklessly, the insurance company will pay for it.
@sycoseo
It is already possible for women to avoid financial responsibility via abortion, adoption or they can just leave the baby at a safe haven spot.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-haven_law
Men currently have no options to legally releave themselves of financial responsibility for a child they don't want.
All I am saying, is that the man should have the choice of whether he wants to be on the hook for child support. Yes, they both chose to have sex, but only the woman had the ability to choose whether or not the child would actually be born. Since the man had no say in that decision I dont think he should be forced to be responsible for the result of that decision.
The man should be forced to take financial responsibility because HE DID have a say, right before conception, right before he put his dick in the woman's vagina and sprogged all inside her - that is the point when he opened himself up to the responsibility of a child being born. You can't shoot someone in the head, and then be like, "Well, you can't charge me with murder, because I didn't have a say in whether the victim was taken off life support."
@sycoseo So bassically the classic "he consented to sex therefore he consented to being responsible for a child" argument. How come that argument can't be applied to a woman? A woman isn't legally forced to be responsible for a child just because she concented to sex. It is always a choice for her.
Yes, if you consent to a particular action, then you consent to the consequences of that action. I think if a woman engages in consensual sex and gives birth, but decides to give away the baby, then she should be held financially responsible, as a guy would be in those circumstances. I don't necessarily agree with the laws or culture. But typically it is the guy that gives up physical responsibility and assumes financial responsibility. Typically a carer assuming physical responsibility can't provide financial responsibility. Relinquishing physical responsibility frees you up to take on financial responsibility.
@sycoseo It's her decision to go through with it, just as it's her ultimate responsibility to make sure he's wearing a condom. No one's gonna care about her body more than she is. His one form of contraception doesn't supersede her, what, eleven forms? Plus after a one night stand, this guy's gone, maybe forever. Do you think he's coming back for a check up?
Yes, but only to express their preference to the woman. She's the one who has to deal with the pregnancy.
@goaded Exactly.
Well if you're with someone and you get pregnant and you or your spouse wants an abortion, I think it is wise to have a conversation about it. I dont think its cool to be like...: "babe I'm pregnant.. I'm going to have an abortion tomorrow" Guy : "okay be safe"... I think both parties should have a conversation about it.
Yes Men should have a say so, providing there's prove they
would make a good father or has a good father figure status.
There are arguments for financial abortion.
Here is a scenario that is not far off,
We can bring a child to fruition in artificial wombs
What happens if she chooses to abort, then the father asks for the unborn child... he sues in court gets the child she aborts he gets the fetus. He brings it to viability.
Then he sues her for child support. Does she have the obligation to support her child?
Any argument for her to be able to financially abort the child are just as valid for the modern father. Think about it.
I can't decide.
I think it's kinda fucked up when a father really wants the baby but the woman can just go and get an abortion without his consent. But i also think its fucked up to force a woman to carry a baby when she doesn't want to.
It's not fucked up because a men can't carry. It's a default rule. I say there should be laws upholding the fathers rights.
@WriterAndPainter Whoever wants the baby should get the baby. It's both of their baby.
@tugg-A So, like what happens when she gives birth and the man suddenly changes his mind?
@danceislife080 You mean about wanting to pay child support or about wanting to see the baby?
@tugg-A you just said "whoever wants the baby should keep the baby". So what if the guy wants the baby and the girl doesn't, which would mean the guy jeeps it, but the guy changes his mind at the last minute?
If a guy has say in what he wants her to do, he better be funding it and/or willing to RAISE that baby.
When I say the choice belongs to the women, it's because the consequences also fall on the women for whatever choice she makes. The guilt would be on her shoulders, raising the child would be her burden... *no matter what*.
Boys on the other hand can skimp out any time they frickin want, run out on their families, avoid the guilt of having a life inside of you and then having it killed.
^^ This. I also just fucking love how there are, what, 100+ opinions here, and basically nobody is even bothering to boot up their fucking brains. Like... I'm not even talking about abstract ethics, here. I'm talking about the fact that this "issue" DOES NOT EVEN **SORT OF** HAVE TWO SIDES, except as a pure hypothetical with literally NO possible relevance to planet earth. I mean... Lol smmfh Like, okay fuckers. Say you voted for "The man should have a say". Let's think about a situation in which the boy would prefer to abort. Whereas the mother would rather, y'know, keep that baby THAT'S GROWING INSIDE HER. Then... what? No rlly... what? the FUCK? do you people think this "say" could be IMPLEMENTED? I mean. Think. With yr fucking brains, kids. We're discussing FORCED ABORTIONS of WANTED CHILDREN. If you think the legislature of a 1st world country would even CONSIDER such a thing, then, you are LITERALLY NOT EVEN FULLY HUMAN. Why bother discussing impossible scenarios? Smh.
Well she should have the final decision, but he should be allowed to opt out of paying child support if he was in favor of abortion and the woman decided not to get one.
In general it just disgusts me how irresponsible people are regardless though
It takes two to tango.
No, a man has no right to decide what a woman does with her body. That right belongs to her, only she can decide to get an abortion. A man's right is the right to walk away, though the law can make that difficult in some places.
@tyber1 What about a woman that rapes a man? He didn't have a say in which women got his sperm of if he even wanted a woman to get his sperm. Maybe he doesn't want to be a biological father. What about a circumcised boy? It's his body too. Shouldn't he get a say?
@tugg-A circumcision is a completely different topic, and a man does have a right to decide what happens with his body. A rapist is violating that right. A rapist belongs behind bars. But no, I don't believe you can force someone to get an abortion because you 'don't want to have a biological child'. Nobody is forcing you to raise it, at least not unless your state gets overrun by religious nutjobs.
@tyber1 If a woman rapes a man, then he didn't get a say what happened to his body. He should have the right in which woman gets his seed.
@tyber1 Infants don't get a say though.
@tugg-A ever heard 2 wrongs don't make a right? Her violation of his rights doesn't entitle him to violate hers. Yeah, infants don't have a choice in circumcision. It's also irrelevant to this conversation which I already pointed out. Learn to read and then get back to me. Until that time, don't bother.
@tyber1 True but you don't care if his rights got violated as long as hers isn't.
@tyber1 You can't be pro choice and pro circumcision. That's hypocrisy.
@tugg-A I do care, I don't condone rape. I never said I was pro-circumcision.
Seriously, nobody is talking about baby dicks here. If you can't stop thinking about baby dicks maybe you need some therapy.
@tyber1 Men do get raped, not just boys, girls and women.
@tugg-A I never claimed otherwise. Leave me alone.
@tyber1 You're the one that said baby d**ks. That implies boys. I took it as you meaning the only males that get raped are boys, not men. Sorry if I interpreted it that way.
Here here!
@tugg-A I was referring to your unhealthy focus on circumcision. Yes, it's bad. We get it. We also weren't talking about it, at all. Stop obsessing over baby dicks.
Nope. His choice began and ended when he chose to have sex with her and without a condom
I think a guy should have a say. I remember an incident that occurred with someone I know, he told me he was with a girl that he loved deeply and she had an abortion that pretty much ruined the relationship so he ended it. It takes two to tango right, the guy should know. If anyone is aware of the Maury show, the main premise of his show is whether or not the guy is the father, sometimes the guys will be happy that they are the father, other times the guy is devastated and wants nothing to do with her.
But at the end of the day if the girl has to make a decision because she feels she is not ready and does not want to bring life into this world in a loveless marriage or a rocky relationship, then I can understand the female's point of view. I was 100% against abortion a few years ago but my stance on it has softened and I try to be more civil and understanding for women or girls who decide to do it.
But what I hope is that the girl learns from her mistake, does not have sex until marriage and leave it at that. The only time I won't have sympathy for a girl or woman is if she had sex 4 or 5 times and had an abortion every time, that's disgusting, slutty and wrong.
He needs to end it. He is a smart person.
A man should not be able to prevent a woman from getting an abortion, or force her to get one. Either is too great a violation of her bodily autonomy. If I could make men get pregnant I would, but our technology is not there yet.
They should both have to approve in order to get an abortion unless the birth would kill the woman.
Same with if one wants to keep it and the other doesn't. Whoever doesn't want it should get to sign over all rights & responsibilities and the other person get to keep it, male or female.
But still, it takes away a woman the right of her own body. It affects her in every possible way. Like carrying an unwanted child all the way down to birth. I can't imagine that. And then when she gives birth to it, she is probably too connected to it, to leave all responsibilities when it's all signed. But again, that was her choice and she has to stand by it. I still can't decide, I'm just making it hard for you, srry.
If you are lucky, you can find the answers to this discussion in my many answers. I have had this conversation on here 2 or 3 times already and it ended up being pretty long each time. I need to go to sleep and I don't want to re-have this long conversation again. Both made the choice, both have the consequences (birth for whoever wants it basically).
That's fine. But thanks anyway! :D
Asker, if she's allowed to take an abortion without the father having a say, it would take away the man's right over his own child. It's both the mother and the father's child. It would be difficult for the father to lose his child if he wants to keep it.
childbirth leaves 10% of women with PTSD www.parentingscience.com/childbirth-trauma.html
which is the same rate at which men get PTSD from combat: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2891773/
"both have the consequences (birth for whoever wants it basically)."
No, the father does NOT have to go through birth. The woman does.
When the man has to endure equal risks in pregnancy, he can have equal rights over deciding whether or not it continues.
@mistixs WIth that logic, men should never get married because over 90% of the risk in marriage is taken by the man. The female pretty much has almost all of the benefits.
Actually studies show that men take most of the benefits of marriage.
Women get MORE depressed when married, men become LESS depressed. www.apa.org/about/gr/issues/women/depression.aspx
Regardless, I agree that women shouldn't be able to FORCE men to get married. Which is the equivalent here when we're talking about men FORCING women to give birth.
@mistixs Men are less depressed after divorce because they don't have to deal with a greedy, lying, selfish person anymore. I know I felt much better after I divorced my ex. Way less stress and BS to put up with. Men get screwed over financially BY FAR when they get divorced. Same goes with child custody. It is an undeniable fact. Anyone that isn't completely retarded or in denial because they are a feminist would know that.
I provided evidence that men are less depressed when MARRIED.
and studies show that it's MEN who become richer after divorce and women who are disadvantaged financially www.theguardian.com/.../divorce-women-research
@mistixs The woman takes his house and gets alimony payments. Also, I was very depressed and angry when married. And I feel so much better after I got divorced. I will never get married again. Maybe have a LTR, but not legal marriage.
Except somehow men still manage to get richer and women get poorer after divorce. Your single anecdote doesn't disprove reality.
@mistixs Men get richer because they don't have to constantly spend money on the selfish woman that wants lots of stuff all the time, but expects to give him nothing in return.
if the woman gets a right to have an abortion, the man should clearly have a say, as it´s not about her "body" but about the future of the offspring, of which both partners are equal part of (genetically).
i´m thinking about a veto against abortion, if she decides do abort it, given he can raise the child alone (he´ll have to prove it). or in case she decides to keep it against his will, he should have the option to not support it financially.
@genericname85 True. If a woman gets raped, she can have an abortion to avoid being a biological mother. So a man that's raped should get the chance to have baby aborted to avoid being a biological father. He didn't get a say in which seed he passed it into. She basically stole his seed and gets to do with it what she wants.
@tugg-A yeah it´s really shocking to me how most people seem to totally ignore mens rights, cause all they see is the image of an innocent woman with a big round belly... society is so ignorant. i mean your scenario is very unlikely but i don´t think rape is the only legitimation for an abortion anyway.
@genericname85 I don't think a man or woman should get a say in abortion but I don't think it should be 1-sided: legal for one and illegal for the other. Once sperm and egg meets, it's a life, regardless if it was consensual, incest or rape.
@tugg-A well yeah that´s of course logical. if you´re completely against it, that´s another thing but IF you allow it, you can´t make it onesided. that´s just retarded.
@tugg-A Cancer cells too are 'life' . They're very much alive. Too much in fact.
And sperm too is life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOnhqdKsP1M
@jacquesvol yeah, yet i kill 10000 of them every masturbation sessions without regrets ^^
@genericname85 boardofwisdom.com/.../377153.png
And a BJ is CANNIBALISM!
@jacquesvol Yes but cancer destroys healthy life, sperm cells don't. Plus, masturbation is not murder because egg and sperm never united during that process. Abortion is murder because egg and sperm are already united.
@genericname85 PM me, please.
@tugg-A Don't forget that many of these cells united with sperm are just evacuated by nature, resulting in an early miscarriage during the 1st week often without the woman even guessing it. So much for 'sanctity of life'. Nature has no problem evacuating a pea sized blob of cells.
@tugg-A lol you can pm me as well, if you wanna do that xD i don´t block random people texting me
@jacquesvol Yes but that's nature deciding who lives or dies, not man or woman. Big difference.
@genericname85 I am level 1 still. You'd have to initiate the PM or wait til I reach level 2.
@tugg-A blog.business-model-innovation.com/.../...ste.jpeg
@tugg-A it says your profile isn´t active anymore. can´t pm you.
Sure they can say whatever they like but it's ultimately her decision. I am open to negotiating the decision if both parties are open to it though.
@RedThread It is not ultimately anybody decision to kill a life. What if a woman rapes a man? He didn't get a say in which woman got his seed. If a woman is raped, she gets to choose. If it's consent involved by both, it's their responsibility to birth the baby. It is technically their responsibility even if 1 was raped.
@tugg-A If a person was raped they did not consent
@MysteriousDarkness True bur murdering a life, that life didn't consent to being killed.
Yes they have to have an opinión, it takes 2 to tango to make a baby. I totally and the woman is the one with the right to decide which is not fair. What happened with the father? wasn't he also part of the conception? I mean without his sperm the baby will have never even be a fetus and without the egg the same and viceversa. A baby is not born out of nowhere or falls from he sky alreayd made. Even in In vitro fertilization,, the sperm and the egg is needed to make the baby, which means the man and the woman.
childbirth leaves 10% of women with PTSD www.parentingscience.com/childbirth-trauma.html
which is the same rate at which men get PTSD from combat: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2891773/
When the man has to endure equal risks in pregnancy, he can have equal rights over deciding whether or not it continues.
No if he didn't wanted to make a kid he should had wrapped it up
If she didn't want a kid, she could've taken the pill, used a female condom, gotten an IUD, or any other contraceptive. It takes both a male and a female to make a kid if you didn't already know that.
@Icyfire101 at least she's doing something to fix it duhh
Abortion isn't contraception -_-
@Icyfire101 Have you read the focking question it's about abortion not contraception -_-
Yes, but your answer insinuated that it is entirely up to the male to have a kid, yet somehow the male should have no say in abortion.
@Icyfire101 You just assumed that because I never said it's the man his fault tf
Let me just apologize for believing that males and females should have equal responibilites when it comes to children. Apparently some people don't understand simple biology 🤔
... did you not read your answer? "If HE didn't want to make a kid, HE should have wrapped it up"
@Icyfire101 You're clearly just in for a fight go do that somewhere else okay smarty pants
Yeah you're right I have nothing better to do with my time than argue with someone who doesn't understand how kids are made 😂😑 you answered a question saying it was the man's fault and then you replied saying you never said that... Nice logic there 👍
@Icyfire101 Yep that's what happend I blamed it all on the man. Boo boo go cry in a corner now maybe you're mommie will comfort you later
*your Yeah brb lemme go cry about what someone said to me on the internet 😂
@Icyfire101 Hey thanks autocorrect now go autocorrect your nasty attitude I know your mommie will come check up on you later aaawhhh boo hooo
Yeah np 👍 She might 🤔 I'll be sure to tell her all about you 😉😑
@Icyfire101 Aawh thanks she will probably be so happy that a girl finally talked to you
@catelyntje If he didn't want to have a kid, he shouldn't have sex. If a woman rapes a man, he didn't want to have a kid wither. She gets to have a kid after raping him tho if she wants.
@tugg-A okay?
@catelyntje I'm saying that when women rape men, he didn't have a choice which woman got his seed.
@tugg-A yeah okay
@catelyntje Huh?
@tugg-A I agree with you I'm done with this conversation also I don't have to explain myself
BellPepper Only a wuss would post, then block a member.
@tugg-A who the fuck is bellepepper? And who is blocked? You know you're starting to get me annoyed
@catelyntje Tell that to BellePepper.
@tugg-A Fock off
@catelyntje I will after you tell her.
@tugg-A what the fock you talking about I don't know any bellepepper
@tugg-A you serious? You're talking about someone blocking you or something and that that person is a wuss then I'm asking you what you're talking about you get annoyed and unfollow me. Hypocrite much or nahh
@Icyfire101 An IUD is a thousand bucks or so they make it purposefully expensive
Yes but only if they are the father of the fetus (not rape) and to express his opinion on the matter.
But the final decision is up to the mother since she is carrying the child.
Absolutely they should. Why should she have the right to terminate his child? Don't care about it's "her body". That's partly HIS babies BODY growing inside. I've been saying this for years!
Why should he have the right to force her through a pregnancy?
@lumos why should she decide kill his child?
Because she's not ready? She's too young? She doesn't have enough money? Their relationship is unstable, she's not sure he's going to stick around? She has medical issues that might mean she could risk her life to give birth? Because she has the right to have full control over her body and her rights are more important than that of a bundle of cells or some other person's opinion? Who's not to say the guy will force her to give birth but then vanish. There are plenty of reasons. However, there's not a single reason as to why it would be right for a man to force a woman to give birth to a kid. He has not right to violate her rights to bodily integrity. And before you ask me about the rights of the zygote - why should a zygote have more rights than a conscious, living, breathing human being who's capable of thinking, feeling and experiencing pain - something the zygote cannot? It's not even aware of its own existence.
@lumos normally I try to be respectful but this is a double standard. What if the dad isn't ready or doesn't have a stable job? It's wrong period. I'm not talking about life threatening or rape. I'm talking about careless acts of sex that result in pregnancy. You were once in that state; we all were. It's asinine to have an abortion just because protection wasn't used or failed.
If a woman doesn't want to worry about having to raise a child she shouldn't have sex or she should have protect sex
@Scooby225 exactly. I got pregnant at 19 and was far from ready, but I certainly wasn't going to punish an unborn child because I was careless. Needless to say I do not regret having him. He will be 13 in a few days and I could not be more happier with the decision I made to take on my responsibility.
Where exactly did I say that I think the dad shouldn't be able to opt out? You don't have to have "careless" sex in order to get pregnant, accidents can happen even if you do everything you're supposed to do. What's even more stupid is forcing someone to give birth when they don't want to. I'm glad things worked out for you but not everyone can do what you did, or want to do what you did. So don't make it seem like everyone should be just like you. @Scooby225 if a man doesn't want to worry about his partner getting an abortion he shouldn't be having sex with someone who's going to get one if an accident happens.
@lumos sex is for reproduction. Humans just have taken advantage. Don't over look into this. Yes accidents happen. I used protection and it still happened. It's stupid to think that just because women carry its just their decision. It's not right. If a female was pregnant should she be forced to get an abortion because the father doesn't want the unborn baby?
Like I said fathers should still be able to opt out; as in he doesn't have to be present in the baby's life if he doesn't want to. If sex was only for reproduction, we would have never invented condoms/pills and all the accessories that can be used during sex. Gay people can also have sex you know, and they can't reproduce. Same goes for people who for biological reasons are unable to have children.
@lumos it is for reproduction t technically speaking. You don't go see lions and tigers getting it on just because someone has pretty stripes or that lions mane is a total turn on. Sex was meant for reproduction. Yes we do it outside of that, But what I'm saying is very valid indeed. Don't go bringing gay sex into this because this has nothing to do with the question. I don't care what Joe and Tommy do or what Linda and Sarah do we are talking about abortion. so let's stick to the topic. You are overthinking what I said about reproduction. That is exactly what sex is supposed to be for. Like I said we all do it for other reasons and not just to have children, or to try to. But what I'm saying is if a mother can make it decision regardless if she's the one carrying because let me remind you that men cannot carry children, that a man should have that right to fight for his child's life
Nope. She's the one who's pregnant. If he didn't want his partner to get an abortion, he shouldn't be having sex with girls who'd get one. That's his own fault. And if the roles were reversed and the men were the ones carrying the child for 8 months, the same rules would apply in reverse. This is a biological difference that makes it impossible for it to be equal. So for as long as abortions are legal, men have to learn how to suck it up and not have sex with girls who want an abortion if an accident happens. Boohoo if he knocks up a girl who doesn't want to keep it. It was his own decision to do so and he should be more careful. Women should not be forced to give birth just because men can't think ahead.
@lumos this is completely contradicting. That's the thing the rolls will never be reversed and it's not fair that someone can make that decision for the guy if he wants to take full responsibility and have the female sign over her rights after the birth. I've had two kids pregnancy does not change your body that drastically. Sure you may gain some weight but if you eat right and you do what you're supposed to do you go back normal. Your statements are completely one sided. So let's just say the guy doesn't want the baby, but the girl does should she carried the baby full-term and then he not have any financial responsibility? The law doesn't allow that, so why should the law allow a woman to get an abortion of someone else's unborn child? (Again, I am not talking about cases of rape or incest)
@WriterAndPainter Thank you for being a voice of reason :) . Nice to at least see a few who gets it.
Roles* lol
@Tanuron I'm telling you in the near future remember me. I will get this ball rolling on advocating for a fathers rights. This is where women don't realize the power they have. Yet, they scream "equality". Women in modernized counties have no real idea how much equality they do have. Also, they want it, they have to give it.
If only we had more wonder women like writer and painter
@Scooby225 thank you. I think there's small minded people can't seem to grasp they were once a "fetus" that had a heart beat. I wonder for these animal lives would feel if I terminated my cats pregnancy or my dogs. I bet some out have me burned at the stake.
@WriterAndPainter That would be very sweet and awesome of you :). But yeah true, been saying it for years myself. Cause in todays society woman overall have way more right than men do yet so many yes who scream equality only want to make that gap further, to give women even more rights and men less. If someone supposedly cared about equality they would either try to give men more rights or give women less rights, cause yup. Dont seem to really see how much power they have.
@Tanuron nope they don't. The vast majority (though I know it's off topic) can take their husbands to court during a divorce and get the kids, spousal support even if she was in the wrong, and much more than a man. It's idiotic to say "my body" because literally no fucking shit, that's not the point. The point is inside is another growing body that doesn't belong to her alone.
True true and yes exactly. What is inside dont soly belong to you. Its kinda funny/weird that too, as soon as the child is born then suddly both parents have the resposbilities and what not, from the point of pregnancy until birth it suddly seems like its only on the womans shoulder so she can do whatever she pleases, even though yes takes two to tango.
@Tanuron yep! So if a woman can terminate he pregnancy because she's "not ready" or "she's too young" then a man should be able to terminate his "rights" along with financial responsibility because he's "not ready". Sure anyone can sign over rights, but in most states it has to be agreed upon and it doesn't cancel out financial responsibility. That would truly be equality.
Preach!!! Point and case if you dont want to worry about kids use protection or dont have sex period.
@Scooby225 yep! There's far too many P precautionary measures to be taken that abortion because it wasn't taken seriously is straight up murder. I have two boys and I hope they find good women because I will kidnap them until they give birth if they try to pull that crap. Maybe I'm too sensitive, but I can't see not giving a "fetus" the same courtesy you and all of us were given.