im a feminist, you know, from the opposite camp. lol *waves* :D
1. circumcising women is for superficial purposes to please mens eyes, and in some cultures, to purposely limit or prevent the kind of pleasure most women get from clitoral stimulation to keep them obedient and in line sexually, prevent adultery, etc. while male circumcision has always come along with the idea that it offers medical benefits, which it does, but nothing overwhelmingly significant. also, judeo-christian ideas are very very common in this world, millions of followers. many christians follow circumcision practices that stem from judaism. it's seen as a commandment from god. if you want to argue with the bible thumpers that gods commandment is wrong, be my guest, but don't try to blame women for ideas that were created by and perpetuated by men.
2. following up on #1, I don't understand how this is a "woman" issue. women were not powerful enough or influencial enough during the times when circumcision first came into practice, we didn't have enough power or influence to change the trending practice of circumcision throughout centuries, and many of us leave that decision up to men. I hear what is being taught about health and my family is christian and they believe its gods will. my mother would have left that decision up to my dad if I were a boy, and I might have done the same. you are saying one thing but in my country the VAST majority of men are pro-circumcision. when the vast majority of men are pro-circumcision, do you honestly think they're going to let women have the final say when a son pops out ? hell no. I've even spoken to some male friends about this since I've seen it brought up here so often. several of them said they would want to make the final decision because "i have a d***, she doesn't. she doesn't know what its like or what's best." I think most people are generally under the influence of our cultural ideas, and also men don't seem to protest much about it here, most men here don't seem to have a problem with it. they still have great sex, and they tell me that its easier to keep themselves clean.
my clit doesn't prevent me from being clean or lead me to have any extra vulnerability to spreading/catching diseases, and if you cut it off, the only thing that will happen is that I will most likely not be able to have an orgasm ever again. so there doesn't seem to be a reason for it. with men, again, we have religious and cultural ideas that it does yield health benefits and also some guys will tell you that its better to be circumcised because its the norm and that's what most girls here will see. if a girl sees a penis that looks different, esp. a younger girl, she might give a negative reaction. a comedian actually joked about it, saying his wife didn't want to hurt the baby and get a circumcision. the guy said the pain he feels now is nothing compared to the negative reaction from a girl who sees his d***. :/3 2 0 1basically, my point is that you are up against some heavy competition. you're up against a practice that goes back to ancient times, backed by centuries and centuries of ideas in society which are often hold more weight than a medical association saying it doesn't offer the extreme benefits people think it does. on top of that, men prefer it in my country, and usually would rather have it done as a baby when it is much less painful for them.
so when you pair the ancient ideas perpetuated throughout centuries by men and religion with testimonies from the horses mouths in our country, and you have little to no protest happening, and there is no evidence that it is inhumane or cruel, people in general are not going to be actively against it, though they may not prefer it. there is no comparison between these two, I'm sorry. female circumcision = chopping off the head of your d***. when that starts happening, okay, ill be protesting too
Im going to respond to the things I like least in your statement-FACT:IT HAS NO MEDICAL BENEFIT!What do I know right?Im only a nurse!ALL CIRCUMCISION IS SUPERFICIAL, not just female,its done to male babies "for pretty"-because girls here,like you said tend to prefer cut up genitals?If women were COMMONLY raped would it be better that you were because that was the NORM?I don't find joking about sexual assault humorous.If I said you hear the one about the girl that was gang-raped?Would you laugh?
okay I've had this debate with some people on here about this very subject and this is what I got out of everything
first of all, when it comes to comparing male to female circ. I truly believe that female circ. is far worse. first of all, not everyone is on the circumcision bandwagon. only jews, Muslims, America, and australia perform circumcisions regularly. and you're number is wrong for how many deaths are from it in America. its actually around 115 (about the same amount as death from sids) and in the world, its only around 500. and even then there's usually no medical records of anyone dying from complications of circ. so there's no proof that death was from circ. for females however, 1 in 3 girls that go through with the procedure die from it. they usually die from hemmoraging, infection, and shock. girls that survive the procedure go through complications the rest of their lives like pain during sex, no pleasure from sex, and pain walking or doing normal activities while boys go on with life like nothing happened. they usually don't even care or know that there's a difference in their penis until they learn that not everyone is cut. then there's the fact that usually (except Muslims) circ. is done when boys are first born, while girls are 7-11 years old. boys won't remember the trauma while girls will.
okay so while I think all this, I do think of your views in that it should be the persons choice to do what they want with their body. but then again, you can't tell parents what to do with their children. if they want to circ. their son, then they should have that option. yeah there's really no medical reason for it but some people prefer this.
there's no point in fighting this war. when you talk to both sides about if they wish they had it done or not, all of the ones that are cut are glad they are and all the ones that aren't cut are glad about that. in the end it doesn't matter at all to guys except for guys like you (i'm sure you aren't cut) that are saying that it's wrong to do this and people shouldn't be. sorry to say but whos going to really listen when their foreskin is already gone? the penis works whether the foreskin is there or not and to everyone man and woman, that's all that matters.0 3 0 0Wow,wrong.There is medical proof that boys died from complications with circ,bleeding out (hemoraging),& infection from foreign pathogen in their newly CUT skin.These HAVE killed children,and it varies, but AVERAGES 200 DEATHS OF MALE BABIES PER YEAR JUST IN THIS COUNTRY.If it was like nothing happened I wouldn't have spent the last 3 years writing a book about it!IT MATTERS TO US!What a hypocrite one second you say people should have the right to decide-then you say let parents steal that right.
from what I researched being in these debates is that the death toll is the same as sids. so around 115. link
i have to be a hypocrite in this because I'm unbiased by everything in this situation. some parents believe that it's just better for their son to have a circ. penis. who am I to tell them what to do with their child? what about their right to make decisions for their child?some decisions are best made by the parent, not by someone writing a book or someone who just is all about their own penis. a complete stranger isn't going to name or know my child so why would their opinion matter? I've done research myself and this is the attitude I get when I talk about this. people don't care and will do it to their son because nothing bad ever happened to the men they knew who got it done. its the parents preference and your rants aren't going to make the preference change.
I didn't have the energy to take in your entire question, but as an initial response I would say that the context of male and female circumcision is seen as very different.
Male circumcision is seen as a culture/religious custom and I think traditionally is also health-related. While I have heard that male circumcision can lessen the sensation a man feels during sex, it is not something that is viewed as having a major impact on a man's ability to enjoy or engage in sex. Female circumcision is assciated with suppressive cultures, and directly destroys a womans ability to gain pleasure from sex.
I don't think it's difficult to understand why women are going to feel more strongly about female than male circumsion. It is simply a matter of us having a greater appreciation of how this would actually affect women and their sexuality (same concept as why women are probably going to show more support for breast cancer causes than prostate cancer causes). As a female I honestly can't appreciate how circumsion would actually affect a man and his view of himself. I also think many women favour sex with men who are circumsised, so that may indirectly affect their choice/attitude towards circumcision as a parent.2 1 0 0Well let me tell you what you don't seem to know.It has NO medical benefit.The childs freedom of religion is STOLEN from him.Its not just a sensitive part-its the most sensitive part of the human body-3 to 4 times more sensitive than a clitoris.It has langerhann cells WHICH FIGHT INFECTION.And some women might find a cut up post-surgically altered penis more attractive-just like some men finding cut up post-surgically altered and enhanced breasts more attractive-but you don't do that to babygirls
First off all there's a big difference between female and male circumsition. With female Circumcision, even if they survive it, they often remove the entire labia and clitoris, often girls can only pee drop by drop afterward and obviously feel little to no sexual pleasure exept from intercourse. It's different from 'just' removing a bit of skin, which if dones correctly does not have side effects that serious.
Another thing is that female Circumcision is often performed when she's around 10 and many women cannot not have healthy or pleasurable sex afterward, contrary to men.
I see your point though. I honestly did not know so many babies die from it. Personnally I wouldn't have my son circumcised, if the father would insist on it I would really have to think about it. Actually many countries are not that big on it than we are in the US, its almost nonexistant in wide parts of Europe.
Wasn't it supposed to be for better hygine in countries with a warmer climate than ours? And then it became traditon in some Relgions I suppose3 2 0 0here is the history and rise and decline link
I honestly find it hard to believe that in 1985 about 90% of boys were circumsised. Anyways I'm not sure what this presentation is supposed to tell me?
its based on the rates in the US, not the world. It shows outside the US aswell but the studies shown should tell you why it first happened to begin with and why it declined (against the arguments for)
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Well, it's not as simple as you make out.
For one thing, female circumcision is not always performed by doctors in a sterile environment. It has much higher rates of mutilation and damage, and frequently (though not always) involves removing the clitoral hood or the clitoris itself.
This means that it's not comparable to the removal of foreskin.
Second, there is the religious/cultural aspects. Making circumcision of boys illegal will, to be blunt, p*ss off the Jews.
You can't quote any scripture to make a blind bit of difference to a religious persons thinking. They will accept change from an authority figure, or not at all. (And sometimes not even then.)
And lastly, you have a substantial lack of men fighting for changes in the way circumcision is done. Just as female circumcision is a female problem, the male circumcision is a male problem. You shouldn't expect females to be worried about the male member, when men themselves don't get worked up about it in great numbers.
Men who are circumcised are perfectly able to have healthy sex lives and receive sexual pleasure. Females who are circumcised, are often not as lucky.
I don't believe false equivalencies and trying find appropriate supporting scripture is anyway to make a reasoned argument on the subject, any more than the pro-circumcision crowd citing bullsh*t medical reasons supports theirs.
For the record, I'm not cut, happy not to be cut, and think circumcision is a barbaric act that didn't even make sense 2000 years ago living in the desert. But if you're going to argue against it, you need a better argument than that.4 2 0 0Half the stuff you said was wrong.Lets go through them one at a time.circumcision is not always performed by a dr here in the US.Sometimes its a mohel,a jew, that sucks the babies bloody penis after cutting the foreskin off.ALL circumcision is mutilation and damage by definition and fact.The clitoral hood is exactly the same as the foreskin,except the foreskin has 20000 nerve endings & the clitoris itself has only 8000.Religions use their scripture to support it-so I will use it to stop it.
How about you try getting your own facts right... To with : (1) I *never* said circumcision was always performed by a Doctor. (2) The sucking of blood is an extremist orthodox version of the Judaic ceremony, hardly ever practiced (though still practiced by some fundamentalists) (3) Lastly, your use of religion will *not* stop it. This is provably the case. People have used religion to argue against religion for 100's of years. It hasn't made a difference.
No what you said was over there it isn't always performed by a dr.What I was saying was yeah-just like here.The vampiric p*rnographic molestation does happen with Jews.Fact.I didn't comment on HOW often,but I will-thousands of times a year.As far as the religion, I will talk about EVERY aspect and reason why people do it,& fight them on each one,if it means saving my people from mutilation and even death.While I don't care to discuss religions I certainly won't let that be the reason some boy died.
I don't have a problem if a person wants to get it done when they are of age but at birth when they have no choice is wrong
A circumcised penis can reduce your chances of getting STD's slightly but wearing a condom is a lot more effective
There are times when it needs to be taken away like if you have phimosis but, otherwise it's not very useful
Probably the women shouldn't put their preference as for their child
There are many people who didn't want their foreskin removed who carry out foreskin restoration which is basically stretching the skin enough till it covers the penis, if your child starts doing that what are you gonna say 'sorry'
It's a good thing I live in the UK as circumcision isn't as popular so I've heard women don't really have much of a preference1 0 0 0Thanks
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9 7I don't think men should just automatically be circumcised, it should be their choice to either get it done or not. I won't get my kids circumcised!
0 1 0 0I have no problem with a man being circumcised, like it's not something I look down on him for or am unattracted to. BUT, I do have a big problem with taking away personal choice. So I agree with you. If a man wants to be circumcised later in life, that's his own deal, but if I had a male child I would never personally take that choice away. It's not my choice to make, and the choice should be there for him to decide when he's old enough to understand it. My boyfriend is uncut, and I know that at least his youngest son is uncut as well. I just see no reason for it.
0 1 0 0so if you had a boyfriend that wanted to get cut...woudl you be uspet or anything?
I'm with someone new now, also uncut. And he's mentioned possibly considering getting cut, just in passing. I don't think it's something he really wants to do, just a curiosity thing, 'the grass is always greener'. =P I don't think he needs to because his penis works beautifully as is, so I see it as unnecessary, but if he was really insecure about it and set on having it done for himself, I would support him in that, if it would make him happier to do so.
Call me what you like sweetheart, being a racist is far worse than any of those. Don't send me private messages you coward, have the balls to do it publicly, you posted the question in the first place surely you know we're not obliged to give the answers you WANT. And for Anon - tough words from someone who prefers to hide behind a wall of anonymity. You're both p.u.s.s.i.e.'s where I'm standing ;O)1 0 0 1I don't do cyber-bullying, down arrow me all you like. I will still sleep well tonight ;O)
haha I like your answer to this. I hate people that do that kind of crap. up for you my friend!
yeh girly, why not?! I don't get many girl requests ;O)
"I am a Masculinist, which means I fight for equal treatment for men,"
I stopped reading right there. Forced circumcision is wrong on either sex, but if it makes you feel better to blame women for your lot while we're still fightin for ours then, so be it.1 2 0 0You have problems? Really? Women do the same, blame all their problems on men. I don't see the difference. It's easier to shift blame, rather than accept the responsibilities. Women's problems died years ago.
Wow. To think of how many books you read just by looking at the cover! Such impressive tact and patience! If you had actually READ everything you would see I'm not BLAMING females. I say the same that forced circumcision is always wrong, that genital mutilation is always wrong. What I was wondering is what is the sexist chauvinistic hypocritical double-standard about that some women like mens genitals that were cut up as babies when they fight to end it for women?
you have no idea that I have a photographic memory so I do not blame you for your ignorance on that front. As for my problems I'm more than happy to deal with them, not to bitch & blame someone else. Unlike both of you I am well-equipped to deal with life and still find time to love it and my fellow people. As for reading that sh*te written above, I don't have to it's irrelevant and boring. you fail to note that forced circumcision of the aborigine's only stopped in 70's.
You raise an interesting point. To tell the truth I never really thought of it that way. I didn't realize that some boys actually die from it. I guess it's because male circumcission is part of a more mainstream culture. We know lots people who have had it done and so we accept it but that doesn't necesarily mean it's right.
1 1 0 0Did you know it isn't that common actually? Almost no one outside USA does it. Not in Asia, China, Japan, most of Europe, South America, Canada, Australia. Most countries don't do it, but America does...at about 36% right now...which equates to about a million baby boys every year.
I'm from Australia I think its mpre common amongst older men but it's something that's definately dieing out. I think here most drs just don't do it. But there are some that still do if people look hard enough I had a cousin who was gonna get her son done and had to look hard to find a dr but didn't go through in the end.
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